Auto engine marinization

Let's not turn this into a political argument, I think most of us come here to get away from that crap.

You got a better design? Let's have it. Those shuttles have been flying for almost 25 years, and to have had only 2 accidents in all that time speaks volumes. But like I said, let's not turn this into political arguments. I hate politics.

 

from http://www.commanderbob.com/



was just readin uscg about fires and quote above when the e-mail bell went. just to set some things straight: i'm all for recycling, inovativity etc but a car engine ventilates its explosive fumes away under the body, a boat is a bowl that holds them in. and there is much more different. diesel is in normal condition not explosive as mentioned earlyer in this thread but make no mistake, it can burn very hot and furiously also. boating is expensive i agree but do realise most of that price is there with very good reason!

btw the spaceshutle can and has been entering earths atmosphere without some of those fantastic tiles, it is designed that way.

 

Diesel is safer but.....

It is not immune from explosion. Having been trained as a diesel mechanic and specifically as a diesel fuel injection technician I can say that diesel fuel can, and will, explode via a spark. Given a high pressure leak that emits a fog of atomised fuel and vapor, a decent spark will ignite the fuel and cause it to burn if not explode.

Try an experiment with it sometime if you doubt the above.

As Yipsters chart show, fuel fires/explosion cause the most damage. 160 incidents and over $11 million in damages.

We all have choices in life. I choose not to put myself, my family, my crew, or my guests in danger unnecessarily. I don't want to have to be towed back to port from 30 or miles out due to an engine, fuel, cooling, electrical, or other failure. The standards are there for a reason. They have been developed and proven over time.

I prefer safety over an award.

Please don't advocate that others apply for a nomination for the Darwin award.

 

Hi there, did I step one someone's toes?

Didn't mean to.

I do sometimes agree with you guys, but not always

I wanted to post but it got lost, so I'll try to remember what I wrote.

Still persuaded that laws are quite different in US and EUR. The returnlines for fuel are permitted, the fuel lines are the same for car and boat use except that the material is sea (water/air) resistant for boat use.
So we change them. Beside the alternator and starter there is nothing that will create sparks in a diesel engine? Correct me if I am wrong. So we change them too. What about gas sensors - alarms? I sure there will be no gas problems if the engine compartment (boat) is vented properly before, during an after operating the engine.

I also hate politics but I had to use them The next item I got from an official US site so I don't consider it as politics.

Did you know that the US has the most vehicle fires of the industrialised countries? There is one every 82 secs. It's including aeroplanes, boats and trains. That makes 384.585 fires a year subtract the 160 boat fires it is giving u 384.425 fires not boat related, looks high to me. I do not know what it represents in relation because there are way more cars than boats but cars frie up too!

The reason for those 160 boats/year, is it the weekender or holiday guy that goes on the water and not checking his engine regularly? Is it the fisherman that has to put every penny aside to survive and therefore has to neglect his boat even if getting fried or drowned? Is it the devoted owner / builder that is proud of what he achieved and inspecting every possible malfunction on his vessel?

Excuse me by pushing it till the end but I am a commercial and engineer I'll try to argument as far as possible so I can analyse all the pros and cons.

Greetz,

Daniel Peeters

 

do what you please, but do some reading on subjects of your interest please, that never hurted anyone

 

Most companies building for the industry, don't want the eye's of big brother looking over his shoulder, or worse regulating his actions. The result is design, engineering and techniques to discourage boneheads from blowing themselves into Davie Jones' locker. Otherwise the government folks will likely write a foolish law with too many loopholes, trying to please too many interested parties, in an effort to appease a pissed off public or answer their outrage (which directly translates into the government types losing their jobs in the next election), in short a law that doesn't really address the real problem, just one that will stop the crying.

Cars by their nature, do not put people in an unnatural environment. This is why the regulations and requirements for them is quite different then boats. If a car has a fuel leak, heaven forbid catch fire, you can stop, get out and call the local firehouse, AAA or your lawyer. A boat is a different beast altogether, where the people are placed in an unnatural environment (farther from shore then they can safely swim back to) Aircraft are quite similar in this regard, but the swimming is done in a much less viscous fluid, and in both environments the resulting drop to the bottom is at least undesirable, if not a bit uncomfortable.

This being the case, (lets stick with boats) the prime concern for the regulators and designers is control of the things that may have catastrophic results. Fire is without a second in battle while at sea. I know, I was faced with a fire and a major leak several years ago. I fought the fire first and dealt with the leak using stop gap measures until I could place more crew to the task of stopping the leak after the fire was contained. Fire is the fear all sailors don't like to think about and the task all navies of the world spend the most time drilling, training and equipping for.

A boat can be vented, but this may require an operator to flip a switch (no good, as there are way to many bone heads in the world, who can't even remember to put the plug in the transom before launching) This leaves the industry and regulators with few options. Diesel doesn't explode unless highly compressed, but it does burn real well and hot. Gas does explode and I've seen too many boats burn to their waterlines over the years to attest to the fools that can afford to operate one.

What are we left with, dumb luck? A responsible society doesn't let it's public hurt themselves without at least trying to slow down the bonehead's ability to paint themselves into a corner. People will always find a way to get themselves hurt or worse, it would be the result of an indifferent society if it was preventable with a few requirements placed on well intending manufactures. I'm one of those manufactures (no more "Z" codes in the HIN on transoms I build! This is a new thing for me and it's way cool!) and I strive to design, produce and refine, update and retro fit the best thinking I and others have, in an effort to provide the best damn boat I can. Possibly, production manufactures must keep costs down and don't pursue the best or safest unless it's mandated. A shame, but competition in this marketplace is tough. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I thought I'd shortcut a feature to trim costs, increasing my bottom line and costing someone's kid their arm, leg or life.

Back to the American thing. We repeatedly have proven better, faster, more efficient ways of doing things, in fact it's a trait this country is known for world wide. We do this because we live in a environment (this country and it's principle foundations) that rewards the brave, insightful, daring and calculating individual and shun centralized control, uniform thinking and the choking of ideas and innovation. These are the tenets of our society in this country and it has made us great, powerful and yes full of ourselves at times (sorry) but we also act responsibly towards our brothers here and overseas.

We have more of everything, bad and good in this country, mostly because of the number of things we have, including fires. Gun control laws would help cut down a few of the other things we have way too much of as well. So take the stats with a grain of salt (maybe the whole shaker) as this country has so much more then most, it's not a fair comparison.

Ultimately, you will be the one who has to trust your engineering. If you haven't backed it up with the appropriate education (as I suspect in Danielsan' case) then you could be the next unlucky person to no brain yourself into a hole you can't get out of. I just hope you don't drag someone else kid(s) with you . . .

 

Not to send this good thread down a rabbit hole but this

Is very misleading and does not belong here. The current approach to gun control is the removing of guns from Law abiding citizens. One only has to look at statistics to realize that this approach is futile. It is virtually impossible to own a gun in Washington D.C. yet crime is through the roof. When the right to carry becomes easier such as in Virginia and Florida there is an almost instant reduction in violent crime. So if you are trying to talk statistics maybe that was a bad example. Now back to your regularly scheduled program

 

Damn you guys,
some did hurt me to the bottom of my heart. As I saw posts in other forums, PAR can't come up with any good constructive ideas maybe because he is to related to existing things, (It's much more easy to install something you can buy off the shelve) or just to bonehead to follow what he learned in his educational thing.

So don't fool yourself to much thinking of being the best, I always liked the states, I still do,(they let me make good money) but some of you are just to "bonehead" to realise there is something else.

Concerning the 'Big brother thing" It's not the government that comes up with the good/bad ideas to write down. It are the developers, commercials, suppliers that do the lobby thing and then the govt people write them down, it is and it will always stay a commercial issue no matter how you want to turn it. I know it is because that's my job. We are an engineering company and we make them write the standards. Worldwide,even in the US!

Maybe some of you convinced me but the price and the quality of a 2nd hand marine engine is not worth it to buy such a thing.

The better thing to say would be "if u don't have the money, don't buy/build a boat", that's the most easy way. I don't like the easy way.


Greetz,

Daniel Peeters

 

In 1935, condom tests had a 60% failure rate. This was done during the debate over regulating the industry in congress. In 1937 the industry was regulated, as the industry wouldn't or couldn't self regulate (right) their products and the failure rate fell below 5% before our entry into WWII. This is a classic example of regulation, by a responsible society and carried out by elected officials. I wonder how many people would have blown them selves up if spark arrestors were not required? How many more millions of dollars would go to the bottom if vent loops and throttle shaft seals weren't required?

Asking for good ideas that don't increase an industry's or company's bottom line is like pulling teeth. Industry doesn't supply the lobbying efforts for regulation, unless it's in their best interest (read increased profits) They provide just the opposite of this, a direct challenge to the government trying to get a handle on an issue.

Engineering firms rarely "force" regulation, because the don't routinely cross over into areas not already covered by some regulation or another. Innovations from whatever source usually aren't addressed unless someone wants more tax money, control over distribution or use. This means someone toes got stepped on, or they believe so, and have deep enough pockets to effect a local political power.

Danielsan, I'm not quite sure what you want. Your previous posts are full of "I think it will be okay if . . ." kind of thinking. This isn't the work of an employee at an engineering firm. Research is the hallmark of all engineering.

If one blindly runs through their ideas, they will fail at a rather high rate. Most of the rest of us have to account for near every dollar spent and each spent on speculation would gather much more enlightenment playing poker with their friends or at a craps table, then frivolous attempts at less then well thought out engineered enhancements, to products that seem to work quite well at present.

This isn't to suggest you should head for the barn and go home. I'm just asking you do you homework, your research on the subject(s) you "don't have a problem with" as you posted earlier. Clearly you have a problem with the way things are done now, maybe it's the money thing, who knows, but rejecting it out of hand or without a complete understanding, is the work of an amateur and couldn't ever be taken seriously by any professional.

On the other hand, if you can back up your clams of the unnecessary "stuff" that is regulated or other wise installed or required, you will have a case to make, in fact one that could earn a great deal of money for you. You'll still run into all kinds of flak from the folks who don't want to, gear up for or spend more money on change.

France, Great Britain, Canada and Brazil had less then 800 combined gun deaths in 2000. In the USA several thousand during the same year. Is it that American's as a rule, have much less regard for human life while owning a gun? Or, is it the fact that France, Great Britain, Canada and Brazil have enacted gun control REGULATIONS. There's that word again. To some like Danielsan and woodboat a word that is difficult to live with. It is a necessary evil, someone has to make the call and we've elected them, so they do. Personally I haven't had to use a gun since I left the military and do own several, but the facts are very clear. A household in this country that has a gun is dramatically more likely to be involved in a shooting (imagine that . . .) though this wasn't the point of the post, effective regulation was (a lot less people died by gun shots in regulated countries then non-regulated) although of topic, a note worthy point.

 

take all the marine stuff off the one that's in it and find a good used one and change it all out on it. Stainless head gaskets, brass freeze plugs, ect. Or buy a new/rebuilt jasper one. Or put a darn transom bracket and a big whompin outboard and deep 6 the I/o. But save the automotive carbs and starters for de cars. The horns on carbs for boats drain in, and a good carb shop can fix a car one up, and most boats burn with a real distinct black smoke anyhows, so you'll probably get someones interest.

 

Hello there,

PAR, this is the most constructive comment you gave over the past posts. I hope this settles a bit the little quarrel over here.

The reason why I use a lot the words as "if, or,..." I always talk that way. It is the rather diplomatic way, and I don't want to get to arrogant by presuming I am sure.
I am indeed quit sure of my thing otherwise I wouldn't hammer on this thing like I did so far.

I hope this forum can go on with what we were into before our discussion.

So where did we stop!

greetz,

Daniel Peeters

PS To guest, I don't have a boat, I am building it from scratch even design is almost from scratch apart from the hull part that sits into water

 

PAR, I agree with you for the most part on regulation. I know you could build a good marine engine from off the shelf parts. Problem is by the time you do it you would have spent less money simply buying the correct engine in the first place. When it comes to safety issues regulation is good provided it is truly driven by safety and not a political agenda. A good analogy would have been the new burners for gas driven water heaters or as you provided the condom issue. An example of good intentions gone awry is my kitchen faucet. New regulations limit my water flow to something unusable. It takes 13 minutes to fill the sink with water to do dishes all in the name of water conservation. I am on a well and know fully about water conservation. I also agree mostly about the profit statement but... With current news media and lawyers the public opinion often forces their hand way before regulation. The pinto gave the industry such a black eye that they seem to voluntarily recall defects much sooner than regulation would have forced. Regulation being government driven tends to very slow to move. I know in the regulated phone industry the companies wanted to drop their rate but were forced to keep them high by regulators. It is speculated that the lower rate meant reduced taxes so they had a vested interest. Your reference to gun control had no place in this otherwise logical discussion. The problem with disarming law abiding citizens is that you can not regulate human behavior. Since when do criminals obey the law? Why don't we pass a law that everyone must speak nice to each other then there wouldn't be any more fighting? Ridiculous? Of course. Does it go against our first amendment rights? Of course. Don't miss my position. I am all for certain regulation like back ground checks so that criminals do not buy guns legally and strong penalties for straw purchases. When guns are taken from law abiding citizens like happened in D.C. you have many who are simply afraid to go to the city and people with cash hiring body gaurds that can carry. In florida where they are now allowed to carry in the car has greatly reduced car jackings. There is much good information available just do a search. Here is one http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp Anyway my point: Because human behavior is involved the reference had no place when discussing engineering.

 

I think for the most part, the people who build engines in boats and have to make money at it, do so in the most reasonable, economical and responsible fashion. This may mean a short block from a vendor with a "accessory" swap out from the dead motor.

Unless you've got a large enough operation to justify the tooling for rebuilding, it doesn't pay. Personally, I get a great deal of enjoyment building an engine to a set of specs I've come up with, in an attempt to meet some performance value. I can only afford to do this on my own projects as the time, money and energy spent couldn't pay for the effort expended.

I agree with most of the regulations imposed by the various governing bodies. I'm seeing a trend for more regulation, that is in my mind an answer by politicians to kick the guy that can do the least amount of harm (pleasure boaters) rather then get into a battle with folks who can tie them up for many years in court, in a case they may well lose.

In coming years we will see some of the things Danielsan would like to try. It's happening now, 2 strokes are going away, digital fuel/engine management controls and the lot. Though I question the logic of putting catalytic converters on lawn mowers, it's coming too. It's in this vain I question the need for such regulation and it boils down to the politicals wanting to say they did something and effecting a "cure" At the same time I'd think requiring the large ship traffic, plying our waterways, to meet much better minimums for deposits, discharges, and other junk into the environment would go farther to cut down or reverse the cycle congress is attempting to address.

So they pick on us. They pick on us, because it's the easiest and shortest path to saying "look we did something . . ." which is all they need to voice to get re-elected. If they really wanted to do something they'd go after the big traffic, but doing battle with them would yield little in the course of their congressional term, so . . .

This is the way of modern society unfortunately, but if I'm to stamp my manufactures code on a transom or expect to be paid when an invoice is delivered, I must comply (I can ***** though) and for the most part, the regs. do help make the experience a safer and better thing.

Yes, a lot of the regs, in fact all that apply have been watered down and run through committee, before they became law, loosing a bit if not most of the teeth intended. This is the way, we have little choice in the matter, so we work around what's there.

Woodboat, you can remove the "restriction orifice" found in your faucet. I have a well also and look for devices that increase flow, not restrict. I have a shower head that will burn the hide right off you, while using 50% less water then a conventional shower head.

We have and just tried again this summer in congress to regulate human behavior. It's against the law to kill, rob, mug, steal, harm, touch, talk about and yes, even think about certain elements of life in this country. 60% of he gun related deaths last year in this country were performed by people using stolen guns. Law abiding folks get their guns ripped off and Joe Blow crack head buys it out of the trunk of a 1972 Nova for $20, then marches down to the local 7-11. If only law enforcement, military, collectors and others whom prove the need (body guards, etc.) are allowed to own a gun, Joe Blow crack head will have to resort to strong arm tactics and maybe get his *** whipped instead. A good fist fight is a hell of a lot better then a good gun fight (I've been in both)

Again this wasn't the point. There is no reason not to believe, that if gun control laws were much tougher in this country, that gun related deaths would drop just as dramatically as did in the other countries around the world. That type of regulation is needed. We can still own the guns, but will have to qualify and quantify for the right to bare them.

 

I can not remove the restriction on my faucet. It has a built in sprayer that pulls out. The head is fed by very small lines. There is no way to increase the lines. If regulations are so great why do you advocate removing the restrictor that was clearly a result of government regulations? You make some grievous errors in your assumptions. You assume that we will all be nice if guns go away, Or that somehow we are all equal and my 70 year old Father would do well in a fist fight. No, quite the opposite. Time and time again a gun has been used to stop crime. Again you speak in theories not reality. In theory communism sounds great. In practice it was horrible in USSR and is pretty bad in China. Again where would you rather live with regards to violent crime? London which has strict gun laws or switzerland http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b7f78c351b6.htm How about washington D.C.??? or lovely Virginia which is only a few minutes away. You live in a dream world like star trek where money is not needed and everyone simply works hard because they want to and everyone is just nice and gets along. I can not continue down this rabbit hole any longer. I am out.

 

Yo,Yo,YO!

I thought this was a boatdesign forum? What about car engine marinisation?
Some more points of view? I am still into my BMW2.5TDS car engine, might step to a AUDI 2.5TDI V6 one(has more HP),...

Greetz,

Daniel Peeters