Article on Design commission for Loire River Ferry

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Corley, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

  2. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

  3. Luc Vernet
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    Luc Vernet Senior N.A.

    Why such mockery, Daiquiri?
    This design is very interesting, indeed, answers to many of the requirements, (one has to understand them too...) but the presentation of the design concept does not pretend, neither needs, to be "technical".
    Time for "pure" engineers to step back a bit and realize that they only come in second to the designers, in many things nowadays.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  4. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    No mockery, just an amusement. The guy is using some fantastic facial expressions and his whole body to explain the concept in a very cinematographic way. I actually like his style very much and could as well see him as a great actor in comedy movies. :)

    As about the second part of your post - before talking about superiority or inferiority of certain categories, I'd like to see that boat built. Right for now it is just an interesting styling idea. Boats designed by engineers and NA's are not artworks but most of the times (at least in happier times than these...) they get built because they respond to operative and manufacturing requirements, whilst those styled by industrial designers quite often remain just fabulous renderings, a great-looking idea of an imaginary better world we all should look and tend towards.

    This boat is looking great visually but is imho too centered around the aesthetics and too little about practical aspects of construction and operation. There are a number of issues with that design solution, some of them are pretty immediate to spot:

    1) Since it wants to be a ship for commercial passenger transport, it will have to be cost-effective and cargo-effective (cargo=passengers), at least to a certain degree. That degree is higher if the project is privately funded (because privates generally require a very short pay-back time), and can be much lower if it is an answer to a public tender which has intentionally placed an emphasis on aesthetic appeal, more than on practical usefulness. This boat is not cost-effective, neither form the construction nor from the operational and maintainability point of view. It's forms are complex, with a lots of curved surfaces and some hardly reachable ones for maintainance.

    2) The deck space is quite small and poorly used for a commercial passenger-ferry vessel intended for sight-seeing trips. There are only two small usable open deck areas where people can gather for watching the coast - on the front portside and on the aft starboard side. In between there is a glassed cabin, which spoils the designer's implicit intention to ideally "connect" the two river sides.

    3) The extensively curved deck is a dangerous feature on a passenger vessel. It might give job for rescue teams and for lawyers specialized in injury-related cases during the lifetime of the vessel. The vessel is also rather badly conformed for docking operations by the crew.

    4) The field of vision from the helm station doesn't look good, it is highly asymmetrical and with a number of blind spots where they shouldn't be.

    5) The waterline shows a lack of boat-related technical competence. At a current stage, it denotes an inefficient hull, with wave-making knuckles in the waterlines. It is not suitable for high-speed coastal operations, which is apparently required by the tender. From http://h.dev.wearereborn.com/boat/ : "a shallow-draft boat with two hulls, which is stable and agile and travels comfortably at both high and low speed"

    These are just some of the technical considerations which can be done on the basis of few images seen so far. You are free to disagree with them, if you think they are flawed or too conservative.

    On the good side, I do agree that the vessel is visually very attractive and is an example of thinking out of the box. With some modifications done in collaboration with a person experienced in design, construction and operation of vessels of this type, it could be a really nice appearance on the Loire river one day.

    Cheers
     
  5. Luc Vernet
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    Luc Vernet Senior N.A.

    Hi,
    This maybe a good opportunity to discuss (a bit: I have not got much time.. :( ) the long going controversy between "designers" and "engineers". Applies in his discussion to these specialized fields that are Yacht Design and Naval Architecture (note both profession's specialization).

    It basically starts with precisely what you have written down: thinking out of the box":
    Then, I of course agree with you (having quite some years in passenger boat construction and design) about all the obvious faults - or at least that would be subject to improvements - as far as practicability, safety, etc... is concerned, not to mention what is visible of the hull: all these need collaboration with more technically oriented people.

    I have difficulties understanding this "happier times than these"...??? Time is getting, once again, a bit rough for most people, in yachting like other sectors, giga-yachts excepted...and even there: many difficulties you - and me - may not know about. I am afraid that you mean these "happy" days where Naval Architects were mastering boat design from A to Z. Yes: in this respect, times have changed, at least for large yachts (my field) since great designers like the late Jon Bannenberg, to cite only one but who I know quite well, have shaken the coconut and get a few old concepts to fall down.
    In modern Yacht construction and design, collaboration is, more and more, becoming essential: no-one can master the whole project down to it's most intimate details. And the "happier times" you are talking about, if I understand you right, were those where the Naval Architect was the mastermind, but which is more and more replaced by the designer imposing his concepts to the Naval Architect, and being the master mind. Very much like the house Architect collaborating with the reinforced concrete engineers. The Naval Architecture studios are effectively more ad more becoming engineering studios, with their word to say on many things, but this within the constraints imposed by the designer, like for Incat Crowther or Studio Mauric for example, with who I have been working . They are less and less asked to do the conceptual design.

    Where you, and many others who seem to be despising Yacht designers (Alik being a remarkable example) make a mistake is in confusing between "industrial designers" and "Yacht designers". Their work is far from having to produce nice looking renders (this is the work of artists specialized in computer generated imagery...like most of my staff, actually - but that's another story!), but more in, like you said, working out concepts for a "better world we all should look and tend forward". The difference with non specialized industrial designers is that they also know pretty well how a boat works, what the sea is like, the various rules, and how to design a boat, generally speaking. It is just that their interest tended more towards the concepts, the aesthetics (including "aesthetics of life") than the obscure equations and other calculations they found pretty boring.

    Then, why do boats designed by Naval Architects effectively more often get build than design produced by designers? Just because the order has been placed, in one case, while it is just a research in the other one. Designers, more than engineers, have to show their creativity and their talent, while the engineers only have to shown their diplomas (and credentials). It is the case in fashion, where absolutely un-wearable clothes are shown on podiums to women who will order more reasonable ones. It is the case in car design where great concept cars are shown but that will never be built but where the production car will inherit of some of the great ideas and shapes shown on the concept car. It is the same on yachts where suggestions have to be proposed to potential clients through some extreme designs, that will later be more "civilized" by the designer himself, would his ideas have drawn the attention of a client. Many of these concept designs will never see the light of the day, though...

    Then, once a designer has been appointed, a lot of people will chime in: owners representatives (grrr!!), brokers (grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!)< but also Naval Architects, propulsion engineers, aerodynamics specialists (your field), etc... etc... and all work together...but with the designer being the mastermind, the "others" like it or not! A few NAs are talented enough like Espen Oeino escape this. Others have to accept it.
     
  6. daiquiri
    Joined: May 2004
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I think it has been discussed several times before in this forum, like (for example) in the threads listed at the end of this post. And this one won't be the last time for sure, it's a very hot theme. ;)

    I am sorry, you've got me wrong - and hence have constructed the rest of your reply on the wrong premises. :)
    The "happier times" were intended in economical sense, when many more vessels were commissioned and built. Absolutely not intended in the way you have read it.

    However, I do not disagree with you when it comes to the importance of the styling, or industrial design, in the process of designing a boat (or any other thing that needs to sell). Don't forget that I live in Italy. ;) But I also do emphasize the at least equally important (but often even more important) technical, practical and safety-related aspects of the process. The latter ones are too often forgotten by the pure industrial designers. Please read the following posts and opinions of mine, before labeling me or putting me into a "styling deniers" category ;) :

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...rs-need-naval-engineers-41836.html#post530455
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/po...t-powerboat-do-not-sell-38959.html#post477332
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/beautiful-curve-43603.html#post563330
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/form-vs-function-35383-2.html#post415890

    Then, if you wish, we can discuss them.

    Cheers!
     

  7. Luc Vernet
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    Luc Vernet Senior N.A.

    Thanks for these links, Daiquiri. I do not have much time - specially right now! - but still went through all of them. Interesting discussions, for sure, that, since I seldom come here, did miss.

    I definitely did! Sorry for that, but from the little I had seen on this forum, it was looking to me that there was a general tendency to despise designers in favor of "number crunchers" ! I can see by reading the links you cite that I was wrong there too....although some seem to have an incurable allergy against designers (for probably some bad personal experiences...).

    Certainly an endless subject, which can lead to endless discussions, but not on the web, my dear: perhaps on some shady terrace, near the Adriatic, one day.... ;)
     
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