Artemis Pitchpoled; 1 Dead

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Earl Boebert, May 9, 2013.

  1. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Not to anybody I know.
    But we all know that most people report opinions that are the same as their own.

    I personally was bored to tears with the OLD slowboat AC competition. To me it was as irrelevant as racing pickups.

    The only thing now is the lack of technical information.
     
  2. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    While the rest of you comment was on target, this is outright wrong, regardless of the current litigious/nanny state society we live. The ultimate responsibility of the safey of the crew lays with the skipper. He is always ultimately responsible of the vessel, even in something so republican as a racing yacht crew. The only way a race committee can save the crew from themselves is to not have any race because racing itself is manifestly unsafe in any form of risk analysis.

    No, if racing is to be had, it is up to the individual skippers to decide wether thier craft is in risk due to conditions. By saying the decision is up to the committee, you side with the Alinghi syndicate in their attempt to cheat BMW Oracle out of the cup in the last AC...We don't need such a pitiful display like that again.

    When I used to teach sailing in 470's at college, I made it a point to detail to my students all the ways you could end up dead in the boat (including getting caught under it wraped up in a trappeze harness which was always my fear and the cause of a recent youth fatality). And, I'm sure every racer out there has their share of scars and stories. On SF bay when I raced there in the '80's the joke went that a good day sailing was when nobody got stiches... a great day was when you didn't have to clean up any blood on the boat. I've seen the cockpit sole red with my own blood, had a skipper laid out cold by a boom, and pulled people out of the water both from my own and other boats. The committee had nothing to do with any of those accidents, nor could have prevented them except by preventing sailing altogether.

    In the final analysis it is the "prudence of the mariner" possesed by the skipper, and the crew under him, who decide when it is time to depower, bear off, reef, or withdraw. Reminds me of a story told in the Wabbit fleet, that once on a blustery SF bay day, a competitor was closing fast on a leading boat. The crew voiced his concern, but the skipper said "don't worry". At that moment, the overtaking boat stuffed it in the bay chop and blew the rig. "Yep..." the skipper said, "Wabbits always go real fast right before they blow up".
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  3. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The committee...whatever or whomever that means..MAKES THE RULES.

    They dictate the type of boat ,the course sailed, the number of crew, the quality of crew, the time of year, weather conditions, the safety gear, the scantlings, the performance, righting moment...you name it .

    The committee is always responsible for the welfare of sailors.

    The commitee on the the great single handed ocean races ..the ultimate gran prix test of sailors... does exactly this.

    The fact that the Committee for the Americas cup is a bunch or Ego maniac billionaires makes no difference.

    Only the committee..NOT THE COMPETITORS...can rule if the boats and sailors are up to the task.
     
  4. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I can't wait to see the official data, after it's all over. Meanwhile, some indicators are already starting to pop up, hinting that this show might turn out into a flop:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/14/san-francisco-americas-cup_n_2878258.html
    http://news.yahoo.com/americas-cup-planning-endures-rough-waters-211908601.html
    The current worldwide economic situation is for sure the major factor in this financially delusional beginning of the 34th AC. They couldn't have chosen a worst moment to switch to super-costly high-performance cats. But, a part of the problem imo lies in the fact that general public (not the restricted niche of competitive sailors and hi-tech lovers) likes to associate sailing to a slow-paced sport, where parts regarding technology tactics, training and luck can be clearly distinguished during maneuvers.

    And while monohulls are well-known and widely used boats, very few persons have ever sailed (and ever will) a high-performance cat. So no more joys of calmly sipping a beer with friends in front of a tv and commenting on this or that moment in the race, a badly hoisted or lowered spinnaker, a good or wrong decision about the course to follow, because winds are clearly about to change... It all happens too fast now, and the weather tactics has been eliminated from the race. It looks much less like sailing and much more like car racing now.

    I know I will be slashed as being conservative person, overrun by the rapidly changing times, but I am happy to be that one when it comes to the wider, and even emotional, aspects of sailing - beyond a mere technology and speed. I am pretty much on the front edge in other things, for example in my professional field.
    I was not bored at all, so evidently it is about a personal, or emotional, factor. For me it was a true pleasure to watch the old LVC and AC, with so many teams from all over the world competing because they could afford doing it. True, many match races have been ended with huge distance between the winner and the looser (and many others have been uncertain till the last meter before the finish line), thus taking away the thrill of head-to head rush finals. Too many have been ended with no boat passing through the finish line, because of the lack of wind. But... well, if you didn't get it till now, it's useless to further explain. :)

    I am so curious to see in which aspect will the AC change in next editions.

    Cheers.
     
  5. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

  6. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    The committee is to look after the sailors welfare yes, but to protect their safety no. All the things you cited that are under the perview of the committee only protect the committee through due prudence, not the sailors during the race.

    Like the last AC, lets say sydicate A believes that the wind will be 5 knots and designs a lightweight boat for that condition while within the rules, and sydicate B designs a boat for maximum start wind speed of 15 knots. Should the committee refuse to start the race in 10 knots knowing or believing that A's boat will fail if sailed aggressively? Or should it DSQ A's boat? If A must start or lose the race, is the committee responsible if A starts, breaks up, and someone dies? No, in this case the sole responsibilty for the vessels safety rests with boat A's skipper.

    Really, after having sailed for years in SF bay, I have a feeling that this cup will be exciting for the media, but boring in the outcomes. Based on what I've seen of the cat's performance so far, it will be just like the 12's were the winner of the start will stay ahead and the loser will break trying to make it up. The high wind and tunnel conditions of the bay in summer (i.e. the valley sucks) with the short steep chop is going to eat these thing alive if they are not sailed with circumspection.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  7. Blackburn
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    Blackburn Senior Member

    Mutiny Flashback!

    lol

    Here's something so obscure that I had almost forgotten it myself.

    I had to let this girl out of her pen now, after the great snorts she gave in reply to those old allegations of 'cheating'!

    ;)

    Comments from the Alinghi Cow (their mascot) on Scuttlebutt's article in 2010 about the SNG Mutiny:


    [​IMG]
     
  8. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    As expected, the usual flat earther (read mono extremist nutters) again jump on the tired old bus and shout out their anti-multihull, anti-yachting evolution mantra.
    But luckily, they're only repetitively speaking to a rigidly closed circuit brigade ... no one is going to listen to their whining ... the AC will continue. I can't wait.
     
  9. Blackburn
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    Blackburn Senior Member

    ...

    Anyone else watching the live feed from the ACRM's press conference?

    Ehman just assured everyone that he and Jane will take care of everyone...

    Earning his keep. Again.


    ^^^^

    Hello Coxcreek, scalliwag and bane of the internet!

    I'd offer you a beer, but I find we're on different tectonic plates.

    lol
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Sailing

    I think these extraordinary new boats are the best thing to happen to the America's Cup in decades. I think the design, including the first use of hydrofoils ever in an AC, is a technological advance that should be cheered and recognized for the incredible sailing that it makes possible. No one will convince me that there is something intrinsically wrong with this technology and that it should be put back in a box never again to be witnessed by mortal mankind-never! It is an advance, a summation of all that is good about sailing and adventure, and a door opening to a spectacular world of super sailing that has never been seen on this earth. Tragedy has often been part of giant leaps of technology and in most cases the development continues until we get it right-thats what should happen in this case.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oT1EBIBjs4&feature=player_embedded
     
  11. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    Very polite and sober reply.
     
  12. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Which is why the olympics had much more appeal to the majority of sailors.
     
  13. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Yet committees are culpable if aware for allowing a race to continue in adverse conditions, and also culpable for allowing unsafe vessels to compete.
     
  14. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Doug, anyone who has been following Boatdesign.net for longer than twenty minutes knows well your unreserved support for this technology.

    There is precedent for resetting the rules to reduce risk in many professional sports. Formula One automotive racing has done this many times. Just about every high risk sport has.

    Changing the rules to make a sport safer does not reduce competition. It doesn't suppress innovation. It may change the direction people go in when hunting for speed. On behalf of the participants, I reject your statement that tragedy is a frequent companion (and by implication expected companion) to progress - it does not need to be. Kids have lost their dad. Circumstances for their family have changed for the worst - and they may still be having an effect when those kids may not be able to afford college on a mother's single income.

    Establishing safety standards and consciously choosing a technology level that keeps competition safer for participants may be annoying to those that want progress without regard for the cost.

    I have no objection to Paul Larson's efforts with SailRocket - he was competing with a record, and not putting others at risk with using his design. His fate was in his hands alone, and he did not have the responsibility of controlling the fate of other team mates and competitors.

    The AC72's are by their nature forcing teams of people to compete and consciously assume very high risk by reducing weight, safety margins and ever increasing speeds.

    It may be worthwhile to separate your desire for risky leaps of progress from sporting competition involving teams of people. Sport is about people - teams and players that win or lose, not design innovation at any cost. Records are about platforms, innovation and technology at any cost - not people. Combining the records and sport together isn't necessarily the best choice. I acknowledge that "progress at any cost - leaps and bounds" may be faster when funded by large scale sporting competition and sponsors like Oracle.

    I just can't envision a team sport where people die as worthwhile. Fix the rules to keep this from repeating. And keep the unrestricted arms race for the record seekers that only risk themselves.

    --
    CutOnce
     
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  15. motorbike
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    motorbike Senior Member

    Gary, this is not really the case for those who actually consider all the issues that have arisen. The worn out mono/multi conflict borders on the irrationaliity of religious fanatics going at each other and to be fair most of the hard done whining comes from the insecurity of the multi guys. I sail monos for personal reasons, but I appreciate multis for their positive points. But I wont let that cloud my opinion that these boats are not the right platform for this series.

    The AC has always been and will always be a billionaires pissing competition, to a degree the platform they choose is irrelevant, but in the current format the classic elements of yacht racing that make it a grand chess game have been reduced to a degree that looks like it will be a drag race between technological differences.

    To state that its a fight between the boring old guard and the new wave of technology is creating a straw man. I dont think anyone doubts the skill of the designers, builder and sailors and marvels at these boats, but the real discussion is whether this format is an appropriate one. Ive had ETNZ foiling past me several times and WOW its an impressive boat. But so what? If speed was everything, why have F1 made so many changes to reduce speed and improve safety yet remain so popular?

    My experience of yacht racing has led me to conclude that speed is relative and despite most yachts sailing slower that you can run out to the letterbox to get the paper in the rain, it feels fast and things happen fast, especially if youre close racing with boats of a similar speed.

    The last shootout between the cat and tri was so boring and dull, sure it was a technological marvel but talk about yawn inducing. On that basis alone if the cup next is a drag race, its a failure for me as a sailor. The 1983 AC is probably never going to be repeated, the warfare on and off the water, the characters, the skill and the intensity of the racing. It seems that today the focus is all on the platform whereas in the recent modern era the skippers and sailors were just as important as the boat. Today its all about the boat.

    This thread is about the safety of these boats, and whether the format is too risky. While I have no doubt the cup will roll on, if there is another death after this without significant changes to the safety routines and wind limits etc then my prediction is that whatever the AC gods are trying to achieve will be destroyed and the cat format that you love so much will be sadly relegated to the history books as an abysmal failure.
     
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