around in pocket, I I think so

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by WindRaf, Oct 2, 2014.

  1. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    I am looking at this project from a totally different point of view, SIMPLE CURIOSITY !!

    I obviously believe that it is a completely feasible and workable concept and there is one very simple question that nobody can answer properly, HOW DOES A SHORT FAT DISPLACEMENT MICRO YACHT OF TEN FEET - FEEL and sail and handle. All the theory in the world and all the bright sparks CANNOT answer this simple question.

    Nobody has ever done it to my knowledge, so to trash the idea is as foolish as saying to the Wright brothers that built bicycles that flying is a stupid idea.

    I believe there is a place for a half size Flicka and only time will tell.
    Only through experimentation do we learn, the guys sitting on the side always have a lot to say.
     
  2. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    And I must add that building Fargo, which has no commercial value at all, I have learned 1000% more that all the experts hanging over the bar counter at the yacht clubs know.

    When I see an idiot coming along with a beer in his hand I now ignore them.
    Had my fill of people that can't even build a dingy but are "experts" on everything in the universe.

    Bottom line is strokes for folks, some will and some wont.
     
  3. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Manie, this is not something that hasn't been done before. While i don't think anyone has actually circumnavigated in a 10ft boat i think Gerry Spiess of Minnesota crossed both the Atlantic and Pacific 20 or 30 years ago, so if you would like to find the answer to how they feel and sail you could perhaps try to track him down. i don't remember the name of the 12ft boat i saw in NZ but it was a twin keel boat rather than a deep fat keel so depending on which tack he was on it had "Britannia rules the waves" painted on one keel and "Britannia waves the rules" painted on the other, unfortunately he went missing in the Tasman sea, nothing to do with the size though as many larger well found sail boats have been lost without a trace in the Tasman.
    I don't think there is any doubt that the right masochist could circumnavigate in a ten ft boat but it just seems to me that every time someone tries something something like this it is more of a self promotional stunt than something that contributes anything useful to the world of yacht design. The fact that every one of these boats that i have seen or read about is plastered with sponsors logos bears this out, who the hell needs sponsors for a ten ft boat?
    Btw, if you were referring to me as one of the people who "cant even build a dinghy" you should know that I have been a professional boatbuilder for more than 40 years and have built more than 500 dinghies as well as having built or been part of a build team on many larger boats up to 90ft in many materials.

    Steve.
     
  4. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Oh, it just occurred to me that it is possible that someone who is not a shameless self promoter has circumnavigated in a ten ft boat but we would not know about it.

    Steve.
     
  5. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    I do not understand these controversies.
    When I was young and I was racing in a team, I lived on spaces smaller than those that are available on a 10 ft designed for long voyages.
    The preliminary design that I submitted is 10 ft long, 6.58 ft wide, and with a cabin height 4.5 ft.
    A load capacity of 1,000 kg.
    Basically it is a boat of 20 ft without cokpit outside.
    Well, except that the boat does not have to break, and she needs to straighten out if turned upside down, I believe it is not a question of masochism, but good planning, willpower, time, patience and, as in all things, even of luck.
    As inquiries concerning the sponsors, I believe there are two categories: those who make fun of everyone and use the idea as a hoax, and those who want to try it for real; who really wants to do will certainly not only the expenses of the construction of a boatload of 10 ft, but also all the expenses side of a long-term commitment so do not depend on the size.
    Certainly the sponsors are a help but also a curse.
     
  6. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    There are a lot of folk who do long distance cruising without a lot of resources on small inexpensive boats who pay their own way without seeking sponsors, the difference is they are not glory hounds, they are just going cruising.
    I believe it would be a lot easier to design a boat of this type if you did not seek sponsors, they would expect you to be in communication daily, you would be burdened with so much electronic crap and the associated means of powering it all, heavy stuff that would drive the design.

    Steve.
     
  7. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    Hi Manie,
    maybe I'm wrong, but I have not found the designs of your ten.
    I followed your link but I've only seen a few pictures of the build.
     
  8. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

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  9. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    Thank you Manie,
    very interesting.
    In my design I expanded on the top the keel so it can hold 200 liters of fresh water.
     
  10. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Manie B Senior Member

    WindRaf we had many discussions and we finally decided that the keel would be our choice for the batteries, and that way we get a lot of ballast very low down. I have 180 liters of water under the bed in 10 liter containers. So my ballast in the empty boat will be more than 300 kgs.

    I must just add that Wynand, my "Friend - Guru - Inspiration" has been a tremendous help over the past year and he has always come up with workable alternatives for me to explore.

    Read more about Wynand here:

    http://5psi.net/

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/profile/wynand-n.html

    Wynand is honestly a walking encyclopedia on boats and especially steel boats.
    That is why I like his ideas, because the thinking has never been super light.

    Enjoy
    :)
     
  11. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    Manie,
    yes, I see that your boat is well designed and that she was very thought out.
    Maybe it's because the boat that I'm drawing is wider, I'm doing a little bit different considerations.
    In particular on the keel: a profile Naca extended to almost any length, brings forward the center of drift, and this is not good for the stability of the route. At least for me that I hypothesize 'Slocum sistem' for self-government and the absence of electrical devices.
    Moreover, according to me, is not so much a question of a capacity load in weight, but of space: it is one thing to say... I need a kilogram per day, but the volume it occupies the kilogram. I want to say that the space occupied by food and relief items is much higher than its weight, so the enlargement at the top of the keel has for me the function to move back the center of drift and increase the overall volume, which in my case is dedicated for to fresh water.
    I also believe that a boat like this does not need to have a low center of gravity at empty boat, practically everything stowage is under the waterline, is 70% of the final displacement.
     
  12. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

  13. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Interesting design.

    Somewhat similar to mine (see attachment), but yours has a pointed bow and mine has a transom one.

    The keel design is interesting. It has a fat airfoil shape at the top and tapers to a point at the bottom.

    The one I drew, is simply a box section with a rounded leading edge and a tapered trailing one. It is to be solid wood with a concrete and re-bar ballast slug.

    Your rig choice is interesting. Why did you chose a Bermudan ketch? Are the masts supported with stays and shrouds?

    I drew a gaff sloop with a deliberate lee helm. With the jib struck, the boat will be able to sail upwind and on a reach. I wanted it to be setting the most sail, while sailing down wind.

    The payload on my design is slightly more than half than that of yours.

    My design is supposed to make the voyage in short hops of around 2,000 nm. The advantage I see in this is probably better average speeds.

    The peril is being becalmed for long periods.

    The arguments against this sort of venture are sound, IMHO, but the challenge of designing tiny ocean going boats is just too fun to pass up.

    As for how tiny, I personally will stop at 3.0 m in Length. Any shorter than that, the boat doesn't actually get any smaller. It just gets fatter and stubbier. The loss in internal volume and WL Length just mandates a more ball like hull. After a very short while, this all gets to be quite silly.

    Voyages across the Atlantic have been completed in boats less than 1.5 m long. OK, great stunt. But who would ever do that just for recreation?

    The 10 footer is, IMHO, about the shortest practical offshore boat. It is longer than the sailor, and can have reasonable proportions.

    Though it may be able to cross an ocean, it could probably be used for more reasonable pursuits, such as shorter offshore trips.

    Such a boat could be quite economical to build and maintain, for the lone sailor. It might be easier to work too, as the sailor can work everything from below, with everything within easy reach, and never have to appear on deck.

    Also, such craft could be used as models for larger cruising boats, rather than the racing yachts, and old sailing work boats that are presently used. A scaled up, 20 ft version of my "Football" design, for instance, would displace over 6.0 tons and would probably be suitable for living on board, and, due to its short length, may be quite economical to berth.
     

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  14. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    sharpei 2
    it is true, draw a boat of 10 ft is a fascinating design challenge and also difficult.
    I also think that 10 ft is the minimum reasonable Under this measure is a matter for the dwarves.
    Your project is original and beautiful in its simplicity.
    For my I answer your comments:
    1) is always large because I wanted the stern out of the water even at full load, to eliminate any residual resistance, and this is crucial for the speed in light winds.
    2) is 2 m wide, because I wanted to cross the bunk, and thus have space for the cockpit separated by a watertight bulkhead behind, and space for cooker, front, more watertight bulkhead forepeak.
    3) I believe that a thousand pounds of cargo capacity, at the start, are the right size to have good stocks of food and water in ocean voyages because even in 2000 miles you can have drawbacks unplanned.
    4) but at the edge of a 10 ft the biggest problem is not the load capacity (theoretically can be done even with a displacement of 2 tons), but the volume where stow necessary. For this reason the keel, in my project, it is the fresh water tank. But I wanted this solution also had all the trappings hydrodynamic.
    5) On the sail I'm still thinking. But for sure it will be modern marconi mainsail roaching, why it is important for the beat, have a sail very efficient.

    (I hope my English is enought to explain)
     

  15. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    6) Bermudan ketch has many advantages even in a small boat:
    The sailing center is adjustable in all gaits. In fact, with the wind in its broad reach need a lot of sailing ahead, and in close-hauled the boat must be luffing. The ketch solves the problem of centering finless additional furniture, and navigates straight without electric autopilots.
    Also during storms if you choose to stay on the anchor float the small mizzen sail the boat to help you stay with the bow into the sea.
     
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