Are wooden pirogues safe and sturdy?

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by mmelnick, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 494, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    At $10 a crack, you'll find it difficult to do much better. The free boat plan sites, even the good ones, will not have the support and instructional information available that Bateau can offer.

    As far as "winging it" I don't think you have sufficient grasp on the hydrodynamic and engineering principles necessary to make the boat float where you'd like for reasonable preformance. I mean not insult by this, it takes no small amount of training and study to develop the skills to design boats.

    You also should look into Michael Storer's instant canoe or cheap canoe, or whatever he calls it. It's the same idea, cheap and easy to build. This is a link to his site and an electric version (> http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/b...lectric-a-simple-cheap-electric-powered-boat/ <) tell him PAR sent you.

    It's not off topic if it's helpful . . .
     
  2. tinkz
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 23
    Location: indiana

    tinkz New Member

    -winging it like that can produce an ok flat bottom canoe or skiff, I'd go about it a little differently, not a lot.. cutting side panels and joining em straight, for sure. knock 2" worth of triangle off the bottom ends, like \_____________________/ (gonna need it)
    the bottom, I'd draw centerline and distances to make those left and right curves same.
    probably about 6' of the center nearer straight, then do the curves from there to the tips that all 4 are equal and give em the cuts. I'd be after as much width as I could maintain, but keeping entry-exit lines kinda fine.

    the inside chine logs.. 5/8 plenty big and still flexible enough to make those curves..
    I'd cut em at 20 degrees and straight. towards the tips those sides are going to want to become more vertical, means youre gonna need room.. so when youre attaching the chine logs to the floor, work them to the inside an extra 1/4" towards the tips.
    -thats type3 wood glue.. end of day 1.

    when attaching sides, work from the center out and use thick construction adhesive.
    both sides centers, then both sides together to one end, followed by end 2.
    towards those ends you need a LOT of the construction adhesive, because as youre going towards the tips, those sides will want to go more vertical and you'll have a tringular shaped gap that happens.. dont tighten the screws too tight all at once.
    when you get there.. ziptie and glue up those sides ends together with stem blocks cut to the angle you need. time to make some gunwales and spreaders to put on it, bow pieces to both ends (I used luan with 3/4 x 1-1/4 under as end grab handles), other little stuff for the shell to be more complete.
    -next day youre about ready to flip it over, pull the screws, hog the corners carefully with a belt sander, and begin taping the seams.

    this is all super similar-familiar how I did a 1 sheet 12' canoe-kayak, the difference being I put a 10 degree V bottom into it by way of a "keel sandwich", you could too..
    ripping a 16' 2x4 to 2-1/2" wide, then laying the table saw blade over a good 5 degrees and cutting 1/2 thru, spin it, cut it.. for a very shallow V. the floor cut right down the middle, glued-screwed right into that sandwich real tight. it was first thing I did.
    end to end in 12' I got about 3" worth of rocker, and that 10 degree V in the floor.
    the chine logs were cut to 30 degrees (minus the 5 degrees of the bottom made 25 degree side flare). it was an experiment that worked out well a few months ago.
    the sandwich idea was also about getting my hiney a little lower for some stability.

    that idea was about ripping a sheet of luan into 5 equal 9-1/2" widths..
    1.5 lengths per side, 2 for bottom with 22" corner cutting and flipping to make length.
    -it "looks" like a canoe, but with a 19" beam at the floor, its a kayak toy.
    all from 1 sheet and a 12' 2x4, with a couple other scraps here-n-there.
    with that keel sandwich, the inside chine logs, and the gunwales, it came up being pretty stout, and still light enough to carry a long way if I wanted. on the water it felt decent enough for a kayak too, not "too dang tippy".
    I'm sure it'd scale up to 15-1/2' easy enough from 2 sheets and 2 16' 2x4,
    butt seams in the middle and a bit more waste of course. (some would get used)
    but this is me, I've done a few small boat projects before doing this kayak toy, and the "plans" were 100% pooma (you know, pulled out of my azz!) and it worked.
    I decided I wanted a "faster" 1 sheet boat one day, it was done in a week doing a little here-n-there. taking it larger with that V sandwich, I'd try the chine logs at 22 degrees, minus the 5 degrees of the bottom leaves 16-17.. minus a little slop and stress theyed probably land at 15 lol. less side flare makes for a little less rocker end to end.
    its kinda the object to keep the tips in the water, the sandwich's bottom half made for a keel line, the 12 footer tracks decent enough. sure theres better out there,
    -but I didnt build those..

    yeah, we're a little ways away from a being a pirogue anymore.
     

    Attached Files:

    1 person likes this.
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 494, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Mmelnick, take a good look at the two pictures (blow them up for a good look) above and ask yourself if this is what you want from you money and efforts. If these are acceptable then I'm through with this discussion.
     
  4. tinkz
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 20
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 23
    Location: indiana

    tinkz New Member

    PAR, getting mean and personal now?
    money?, I spent a whoppin 30 bucks.
    efforts?, it wasnt even 20 hours.
    it was built on the fast and cheap, with the constraint of being just one sheet,
    to keep the construction as simple as possible with minimal waste.
    to have as much length, beam, freeboard, stability, from one sheet.
    as long a waterline, fine entry-exit, and as easily driven as possible within a one sheet constraint. why did the man climb the mountain? because it was there.

    because of the one sheet constraint, yes it does have some triangle-straight-triangle looks at its chine, to minimize waste and keep the sq. in. up for bouyancy.
    the 3" rocker end to end, and the simple V sandwiched keel worked out well.
    lines would be a lot nicer (and with more waste) scaling up to 2 sheets.

    "blow them up for a good look" on a couple low res .jpg's that arent much of anything bigger than the thumbnails is pretty laughable, but I'm not laughing about the implied
    "what a piece of crap" contemptuous "tin god of boating" attitude you just dished.
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 494, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I knew it would come off as that, anyway I worded it Tinkz, though you may have taken it further then I would, had I actually put words to it. I think the shape limitations and frankly the looks are, well, lets say less then what even most backyard builders might consider acceptable.

    It's great you spent 30 bucks, but they look it. Maybe next time 60 bucks would be a better target. Make it 70 bucks and include a set of plans.
     
  6. mmelnick
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 35
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Colorado

    mmelnick Junior Member

    I don't want to "take sides" here. :D But I do agree, it looks a little bit thrown together. Although there is nothing wrong with that for a cheap quick boat. I would like to have something more "boat" looking though.

    BTW, how did you build it so cheap? Did you skip the epoxy? You must have even skipped adding a layer of poly resin for that price? Just the plywood and a gallon of paint would have cost $30 right?



    I personally would rather spend the extra $10 and the extra hour or so on cutting a few curves to get soemthing that I'm sure will preform much better on the water.

    Does anybody know how wide the beam is on the "Nice Canoe 16". I think I would like to go for that one? But without buying the plans I can't compare this one to the free 2 sheet version.

    Is there any info specifically on the length, beam, weight and total load capacity?
     
  7. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 147, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    UncleJohn’s site sells pirogue frames ready made but they are for 31" beam which is too narrow for standing; people - myself included - have found flat-bottomed boats with less than 3' beam too tippy for comfort. With a 4' wide bottom you will be able to stand safely: I would prefer a boat with enough weight forward to hold down the bow while I stand at the stern to attach the motor.

    It’s not clear to me why you wanted a pirogue or bateau. They are cheap, and very quick and easy to build and ideal for shoal water with little in the way of current and weather. They do not take kindly to power boat wakes and much of a swell, they are not meant for those conditions.

    About “winging it” - that is exactly what I did. My first 2 or 3 boats were, er, learning and maturing experiences :) but learning about boat design was what I wanted to do. I know a lot more now, most importantly, I know my limitations. Wing it by all means, but not if having a useful first boat is important to you.

    Think about the entire experience, how will you transport the boat for example. So far it sounds like you might be well served by a moderate size canoe with a small transom carried above the water line so it still paddles efficiently, just big enough for the smallest electric trawling motor. A flat-bottomed canoe is just a pirogue; a five-plank stitch and glue design would offer better all-round characteristics and still be an easy build.
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 494, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Terry, you had certain "advantages" going into your self designed craft, that offered you a wee bit more likelihood of success.

    Again I'd like to say it wasn't my intent to insult Tinkz, though I found it was easy enough to do anyway. I offer my apologies, if only to spite my fingers. I'm glad he got what he desired from his boat and this is all we can really ask of any design.

    I'm not sure of the beam on the Bateau 16, but you call call them (772-770-1225) and Joel will probably pick up the phone (tell him I said hi) and he can tell you directly or if he's at lunch, you may actual get Jacques who designed the boat.

    On most canoe type craft, if you lop off the *** end a bit, as the bottom is so fine that drag isn't worth getting all worried about. It's just a skinny wedge that may be in the water and you can attach a fairing piece to solve any eddies (some transom rake required) if desired.
     
  9. HELLICONIA54
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia

    HELLICONIA54 HELLICONIA54

    I have a pirogue,though not quite like yours.Mine is 17feet long 3ft at waterline midship flaring to 42inches at gunnels.made stick and glue.6mm ply at sides and 9mm bottom fore and aft bulkheads for boyancy.Coated inside and out with epoxy resin,she draw 1 inch with my self and wife on board,4 inches if you add a few teenagers./i can stand with no problems.I've had 4 kids running around in it,lol.I'm fitting a side mounted honda4 stroke 2 horse.It's not light,weighs in at 50Kg's.but i can put it on my roof racks solo.(the canoe,not motor)
     
  10. HELLICONIA54
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia

    HELLICONIA54 HELLICONIA54

    [​IMG] Looks good.this is mine.
     
  11. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 494, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Is there a point to your post HELLICONIA54 or are you just interested in starting something up that has had multiple apologies. Yes, you boat looks like a nice job was done of it, though difficult to see at that resolution.
     
  12. HELLICONIA54
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Melbourne,Victoria,Australia

    HELLICONIA54 HELLICONIA54

    Up close my canoe is stricktly workboat.It was my very first.I guess i lost the thread line somewhere,(sorry)the thread seemed about pirogues and after seeing your two i thought i'd show mine as another example.Not to compare but to show how far you can go with such a simple design.If i have offended you? then i appologise.
     
  13. txriverrat
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 165
    Likes: 12, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 159
    Location: Texas

    txriverrat Senior Member

    Jemswater craft has several designs that will work for you.
    Lot of info there also
    Ron
     
  14. mmelnick
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 35
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Colorado

    mmelnick Junior Member

    A 4' wide bottom would make for an absolutley rediculous "canoe". I'll be fishing from the boat, but I won't be doing much standing. IMO that would be asking the boat to do something thet it was never meant to do.

    I think you answered your own question. They are cheap, easy to build (since this will be my first boat build)and I can easilly throw one over the roll bar on my Jeep without any help.

    I have no intentions of tanking one out intot he middle of a lake where ski boats are making huge wakes. I fish mostly small high mountain lakes, and will occasionally use it to retrieve ducks in shallow water.
     

  15. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 147, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    - true: I was thinking of a skiff when I wrote that ...
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. Rod Tait
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    257
  2. WidowsSon
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    524
  3. Josh Goodswen
    Replies:
    31
    Views:
    1,704
  4. Chris06
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    735
  5. Rod Tait
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    770
  6. Masjaf
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    1,179
  7. Jeff Vanderveen
    Replies:
    18
    Views:
    2,295
  8. Rod Tait
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    1,197
  9. Rodrigo Hurtarte
    Replies:
    15
    Views:
    2,423
  10. Rod Tait
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,306
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.