anyone with any experience using c-flex?

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by tugboat, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    Maybe this is why you had problems...
    http://seemanncomposites.com/images/seemann/cflex001.pdf

    .
     
  2. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    I'd go for the poly layup, & use an epoxy or vinylester barrier coat on the outside sub waterline. Jeff.
     
  3. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Hi SamSam,
    Here we work in metric system in grams per meter squared, makes the calcs pretty simple, still use imperial on other things though...:)
    Jeff.
     
  4. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    I think PAR made some reference to that being the case that woven could be better in that regard, only the rows of stitching rather than the ins & outs of a weave, stitched has othe advantages I suppose.
    Jeff.
     
  5. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
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    Location: australia

    groper Senior Member

    TB, epoxy is rarely used for a solid glass layup like your doing, the reason is the higher mechanical properties of epoxy just arent important in a big heavy solid glass layup so why pay the exttra... I think its probably a waste of money - for your hull. I also dont think you should just buy triax either - it doesnt drape aswell as dbias and you may find it frustrating getting it flat in the highly compound curves areas.

    Another consideration, is what youll use to do other laminations after the hull is made, such as all your tabbing, wheelhouse and decks etc.... If your going to use cored panels for anything, then id use the epoxy. It might also be worth it for all the tabbing youll have to do, saves stinking the place out with styrene everytime - although you do have to wait extended period before you can go over the poly laminate with epoxy to allow all the styrene to off gass - local epoxy manufacturer suggests waiting at least 10days before doing it.
     
  6. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Thanks Groper- iso or probably vinylester it is...and I have been told by a few to use csm and Wr... double bias is much more expensive but lighter...
    maybe ill just use the csm and woven roving to be safe...
     
  7. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Jeff I am told that it easier to use the WR rather than the triax. But the csm here is expensive like 4.50 a yard. Its eff'ed up! somehow triax is much cheaper. Go figure. Ill find a way..that's why I though of using epoxy it eliminates the csm and save me a bundle...but still expensive...
     
  8. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    if I am using csm by the sq ft then it adds a LOT more resin to my project!
    If epoxy I get this-
    1. certainty as to shrink rate of 2%
    2. eliminate costly csm(its expensive for some reason)
    3 less water absorption..

    4. here is the main issue.
    I have called around to maybe 30 suppliers- within Canada as U.S. companies wont ship poly across the border because of hazmat issues. so- the guys I speak with all give me different opinions on the best resin to use for my initial c-flex coat.
    this is a problem because I have no idea if im going with the right or wrong stuff.
    if I use the epoxy- I know it will work for the wet out but then its costly..so this is a problem at the moment....hope you guys can see my dilemma... I hope to get by with a v-ester...im waiting to hear from one more guy on shrink. and costs --if its a inconsistent normal--its going to be epoxy
     
  9. Herman
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: The Netherlands

    Herman Senior Member

    Did you contact ATC?

    I am really amaze by the price of the CSM. This is by far the cheapest glass, except gun roving. I recommend keep searching for decent suppliers in your area. Also do a search for polyester industries (boatbuilding, silo building, swimming pools, whatever.

    Did you contact this company?
    Ditech Plastco Inc

    516 Rue Lepine (map)
    Dorval, Quebec
    H9P 2V6 Canada
    Phone: (514) 636-0588
    Fax: (514) 636-0583
    Email this company



    Company Type:
    Manufacturer

    Products:
    Resins - Polyester



    Company Description:
    Polyester Resins

    Employees: 1-19
    Contact:
    Robert Jones, President


    Key Personnel: Robert Jones President


    As for materials to use: I guess you have a laminate scheme of some sort. What does it mention?
     
  10. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    TB, choppy is usually the cheapest , the price you've mentions sounds more like a kilo rate than cut meter/yard rate & a roll rate should be a bit less. Laminates don't "delaminate" by sitting on the bench, usually by hitting something, the 6 x triax you've indicated seems quite unconvential. Typically in solid laminates the outermost & innermost woven or stitched fabrics "do most of the work" in resisting loads as they seem to be first in line for compressive & tensile loads.... here others may express more professionally/engineeringly. A thirty footer in solid glass might have chopWRorstitchedchop, chopWRorstitchedchop, chopWRorstitchedchop, & overlaps esp to centerline plus additional bulkheads/framing/engine beds & conveniently located stringers for benchtops & bunks.
    I'm sure if you use the yellow pages/phone directory you can track down some fiberglass fabricators & suppliers that will look after you. http://www.fibertek.ca/materials.htm about here... Like they say please call for bulk pricing
    Jeff.
     
  11. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Thanks Herman and waikikin- I will call...

    can you guys explain what Par meant by furring strips and the way he proposed doing his mold?? im curious since I want to learn other ways too. But c-flex seems like the most reasonable way to cover my complex curvature...but would be nice to understand the language?

    I'm not sure what the csm is more- I actually called Noah's in Toronto and they said-nope that's the price per yard..1 oz! what about some milled fibers and paste instead of csm? between the triax.
    so you guys are saying go csm- triax, WR? (then repeat three times?) (on both sides)
     
  12. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Par- I reread your post- with all those strips- why not just make a strip plank hull?

    btw how do 1 inch by 2 inch wood strips conform to compound curvature??
    just totally curious... when do you put the foam on?
     
  13. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    TB, that's not a laminate specifically engineered for your vessels needs, just something that might be "typical".
    You really need to talk to some people/businesses in your area, sometimes a business that fabricates is happy to supply material in a package, one simple transaction in bulk & you can get some discount passed on, same work as selling a 50 buck item, sometimes they get further discount on monthly account limits.. hit a certain turnover & they get a further reduction, you need to get a feel for reasonable pricing & be able to convert kilo & sq meter rates. I don't know what Noahs is but maybe they cater to hobbyists & are resellers of other wholesale outlets. Once you know your quantities & products an email or faxed request for quotations might put you in the picture to compare products.
    Jeff.
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yes, the furring strip method is much like making a stripped hull first, except you use really cheap strips with little regard to fitting, edge set, etc. This just serves as a base over which a release barrier (plastic sheeting) is applied. The furring strips don't have to butt edge to edge either, further saving materials. I can build a plug like this really cheaply and quickly. You can do the same thing with cheapo foam too. The furring strips support under the foam are usually much more widely spaced, saving some effort and materials costs. The cheap foam just bridges the gaps and offers an easy to fair surface, for the release fabric (more plastic sheeting).

    1x2 strips conform well too, though quick curves can cause lots of twist, which can be troublesome for 1x2's, in certain areas of the hull (bilge turn, entry, built down garboards, etc.). I use as big a strip as I can, to save effort and rip them down smaller if necessary in the problem areas.

    Jeff has hit on something most don't know about, unless in a commercial purchasing position. Most suppliers have volume discount break points. Full retail from 1 - 10, a few percent form 11 - 25, maybe some more from 26 - 50, etc. Wholesale and direct from vendor supplying can make huge differences in pricing. A $100 piece at full retail may be $20 at volume discounted wholesale. Most of the time a small out fit can qualify for about 30%, which isn't nothing to sneeze at either.

    Some outfits will only provide these discounts to folks with an account, which requires a business license. The folks I by plywood from (World Panel) don't even sell to the public, but with a business license and active account and some volume purchases, I can get 50% pricing over what you see as seemingly good prices on line. For example an Okoume marine BS1088 (Joubert) retails for about $85 bucks, but I'm paying $52 and I get deeper discounts if I buy a full pallet of the stuff. Of course, I'd never tell a client this and just let them look up the material prices on line, so they think I'm a pricing god.
     

  15. Pylasteki
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: North Carolina

    Pylasteki Junior Member

    PAR,

    What thickness Joubert are you getting at $52 a sheet?

    I'm up in NC and we've got a World Panel warehouse that runs a truck down my way if they have enough orders...

    Grin.

    Thanks,

    Zach
     
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