Anyone know what happened to the foilers in the Texel?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by CT249, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,624
    Likes: 305, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===========
    But I reported the facts accurately , I think, whereas you attempted to obfuscate the real story by implying something must have been wrong with the foilers. You do that sort of thing a lot in your attempts to diss many types of modern technology.
    Like this typical "CT thread": http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sa...ome-canters-foilers-quants-bol-dor-56450.html
    And one doesn't have to look far to find more examples.........
     
  2. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,228
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Hmmm. I went looking at Texel results again because of Doug's complaints.

    It turned out that this is the second year in a row when the foilers were beaten home. Last year the "seahugging" Nacra 20 came home first, four minutes ahead of the foiling Nacra 20. Another seahugging Nacra 20 was third.

    In more than two and a half hours of racing, the first of the cheap and tough F18s was just 6 minutes behind the first of the bigger carbon foilers.
     
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,624
    Likes: 305, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  4. jonas a
    Joined: Sep 2016
    Posts: 15
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Above 60 north

    jonas a Junior Member

    Not the same handicap for "carbon" and "carbon fcs" .I think Carbon has C foils. The winners in 2015 were quite decent sailors , as they represented the Netherlands in Rio
     
  5. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,228
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Over the past five years, there have been 550 Moths, 400 A Class, and probably a couple of score of big foiling multis launched. That's enough boats for about 1300 active sailors, assuming that one different person takes each crew position. They have been involved in at least two "catastrophic injuries", namely one death and one amputation.

    That is a annual rate of one catastrophic injury per 3,250 participants, compared to sailing's normal annual rate of one catastrophic injury per 20,000 participants according to Charles Tator's work on sports injuries. If we use Prof Nathanson MD's figures on the annual death rate among sailors (0.35 per 100,000 sailors) then the foilers look very bad indeed by comparison to normal craft.

    Of course, we are dealing with a very small sample size. However, that works both ways. Most of the foilers are also doing inshore racing, which is safer. But the overall tendency appears to be clear, and only the most biased people would claim that there is evidence that foilers are as safe as conventional craft.

    A lot of the sailing I do is quite dangerous. No one is saying that people shouldn't sail dangerous craft. However, if we are discussing whether claims that "the future of sailing is written in three dimensions" or "the foilers are the future" are right, then we can't ignore the possibility of higher risks.
     
  6. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,228
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Yes, I am right. I quite clearly stated "came home first", which doesn't mean the winner on Texel yardstick. Both the designation of the boat that came home first and (as Jonas noted) the handicap indicate that it was a non-foiling Nacra 20 carbon.
     
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,624
    Likes: 305, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==================

    A ludicrously small sample size........
     
  8. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,228
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Yes, Doug, which means that it is just as ludicrous for you to claim that there is evidence they are just as safe.
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,228
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    You're right, Jonas, it is just marketing. But if the marketing guys are free to spew biased BS out there (whether it's for high performance dinghies, fast multis, funboards, whatever) then the rest of us are free to try to correct it.

    Much of the marketing of some types of sailing seems to be negative, which (as I understand it) is not just poor marketing for the vendor, but can also harm the general image of the sport. My whole problem with this sort of rubbish is that it's disrespectful of other craft and of the people who prefer them.

    Fast craft are great (which is one reason I sail them myself) but to attack our own sport by claiming that other types are not part of its future is unimaginative, insulting and arrogant.
     
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,624
    Likes: 305, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================

    I didn't claim that. And that you would say I did is very telling.......
     
  11. jonas a
    Joined: Sep 2016
    Posts: 15
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Above 60 north

    jonas a Junior Member

  12. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,228
    Likes: 66, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    When it was noted that foilers were more dangerous, you said you would bet that claim was not correct. The only way that the claim "foilers are more dangerous" could be incorrect (as you claimed) was if they were just as safe, or safer.

    If there is not enough information to demonstrate that foilers are more dangerous then there is also not enough information to bet that they are just as safe or safer.

    Anyway, I'll put you on ignore and just keep on presenting the other side of the biased stuff that comes out.
     
  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,624
    Likes: 305, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================

    Thats why some companies are investing in designs that allow their foilers to take off in very light air. The Q23 starts to foil in around 5kts of wind, the Whisper cat in 4 kts.
     
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,624
    Likes: 305, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================
    Please, please do- especially if you actually believe what you just said!
     

  15. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 456
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Utah

    rcnesneg Senior Member

    It's entertaining to watch these threads. The first page has interesting stuff, the rest are a bunch of insults being thrown between Doug and everyone else. Enjoy folks! I think I'll go sailing instead or spend more time on my FEA analysis of the main cross-beam.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.