Any westlawn or yds grad actually working in the industry???

Hi guys, I`m new in this forum, I discovered this site looking for a boat design school on the net.
I`m 28 yrs old, living and WORKING in Italy, already spent 4 yrs of my life studying music in Boston.
I`ve always had a dream: be a boat designer...
Now I find out that 2 schools exist where you can get a "long distance diploma"....
One of the 2 (the one I like) is quiet expensive, I made some math and at the end it can come down to 10000 $$$ (school+material) and it`s also a 2 (if not 3) yrs sacrifice of time and energy...
It`s all fine with me but I`ve a tremendous doubt: DO THIS SCHOOLS MAKE YOU A COMPETITIVE DESIGNER??
I`m not speaking of actual knowledge...follow me, when I say that I`m a Berklee (college of music ) graduate , people goes "wow!" and that`s something to start when it comes to get Job opportunities, then they will judge my actual skills but at list I get chances...
TO make it short: Is there anybody who is happily working in the boat industry ( doing anything) who just has a Westlawn or YDS diploma????
I know that pure knowledge is fantastic, but I`m looking for something that can give me good job opportunities in any field of the boat industry.
ciao!
federico

 

Consider it

Let's consider a typical case ... you have two candidates for one job.

One has a ABET approved degree from the most prestigious naval arch. school in the country, Webb Institute, and an MS from U. Michigan, with his thesis involved validating a theoretical model of computing flow along a planing hull in waves. He knows FEA and composite structure analysis in great detail as well as regular metal structures, is good at 3D CAD, can write computer programs, and incidentally, his BS thesis was a sailing yacht velocity prediction program. He was on the sailing team, interned at a boatbuilder in his sophomore winter break and during the summers, sailed on a merchant ship as a engineer cadet during his senior winter break and worked at a shipyard and a yacht design firm in the other breaks. He passed the EIT and will be eligible for the P.E. in four years.

The other took a mail order course and has been sailing a lot.

Guess what.

I also note that I recently went to an office building to see my doctor in Annapolis. There is a prestigious sailing yacht design firm in the same building. One car parked in the lot has a "University of Michigan" sticker on the back windshield, the other has "Webb Institute" AND "MIT".

 

And the designer taking the interviews will _stilll_ pick the one with a knowledge of how to draw, and how to listen to instructions. Webb does not teach yachts, nor does UM, and MIT is so far out in left field that it's graduates have a hard time even existing in the real world. (not that I'm biased or anything ;-P)
Sometimes it even just boils down to the attitude of the job-seeker. Do they think they know it all? Then no job, as any designer looking for help needs someone who will follow standard practice for that office, not his own ideas of how things should be, although that should always be welcome in the discussion.
Steve

 

mmm...
I see your point guest, and I see Steve`s point...maybe it depends on what kind of Job you are looking for...spoke with an Italian naval architecture (it must be spelled wrong sorry guys) teacher and he told me westlawn is known and respected...
Keep in mind that here in Italy there is just one university teaching Naval Arch. and moving for me it`s not an option (the school is not in my city) plus the programs of the westlawn seem to be equal if not better...
I`m interested in the small/medium motor yachts (0 to 70 feet) production and a naval engineering degree seems a little bit too much...
I`m still very confused...

 

Knows yachts?

What does "knows yachts" mean?

Webb, UM, MIT, UNO, etc. all teach things that involve floating objects of various sorts, and structures, including composites, and stability, and hydrodynamics and ...

Last time I looked this all had some bearing on yacht design.

I am not sure what of yachts they "don't teach".

The NA schools discourage people from going into yacht design because it is very hard to make a living in it. Some schools also used to tend to discourage people from doing their senior design projects on yachts unless they can make a serious technical effort of it and not just a pretty drawing. (One of my classmates did a 1/2 ton IOR yacht, and the major technical effort was a computerized optimization effort.) That is different than "not teaching yachts.

However, they do encourage students to do lots of different kinds of research on various aspects of yachts, nad most of what is known technically about yachts has come out of such student projects (or out of Navy research relating to high speed craft). Even the Naval Academy students do serious research on high speed craft and sailing yachts for their senior theses occasionally.

Please also note that the little Italian school seems to present an awful lot of good work at the CSYS seminars.

 

I`m not shure you are replying to me because if you are probably you got me wrong or something like that, the only part of your msg that I can relate to is the "please note that the little Italian school"...I was just saying that there is only 1 university teaching yacht design and I can`t move from my city (the school is NOT in my city...) the school is very good and it`s not little...is just full time (I already work in another field) and far
As far as the "making a living with Y.designing is very difficult " I have to say that I already work in a field where making a living is very difficult (music) so, we could say that 2 "making a living is very difficult" jobs should make 1 "you can make a living " job
(just kidding)
(now this is serious) Italy is a small place and the most of it is on the sea,it`s full of yacht builders (of any kind) and the boat industry lately seems to be the only field doing fine and increasing while other fields of the market are going down down down...
Anyway, I emaild everybody (architects, eng.,builders etc. ) I could find an address on the net and so far I got two msgs back saying that westlawn is a respected school....and 1 saying that it doesn`t count so much what your bckground is, but what you can do is what really counts.

 

"Guest" says:

********************************
What does "knows yachts" mean?

Webb, UM, MIT, UNO, etc. all teach things that involve floating objects of various sorts, and structures, including composites, and stability, and hydrodynamics and ...

Last time I looked this all had some bearing on yacht design.

I am not sure what of yachts they "don't teach".
********************************************

Well, lessee........
Does Webb teach about sail forces and aerodynamic drag angles and good stuff like that? Not last time I talked to a Webbie.
the UM out and be a "real" yacht designer. UM definitely doesn't teach you about where to place CE and CLR in relation to each other (actually, the graduate I taught that to didn't even know what they meant) let alone how big the keel should be in relation to the sail plan.

Yes, teaching about floating things has some bearing on yacht design, as much as riding a bicycle has to do with Formula One car design. I'm not trying to be funny here, or even patronising (although I know it will look that way) but some factual basis for designing "yachts" must be had in the education, and YDS and Westlawn both teach this, while Naval Architectural schools do not.

Steve Baker
Yacht Designer

 

Forgive some of the garble above - there seems to be half a sentence in there that is made up of all sorts of words that I thought I had erased, in random order.
Luckily, I draw better than I write.....

 

Beginning any trade

You are correct in that a university education does not provide a complete yacht design education. It also does not provide a complete education in offshore structures design. (I had to read the API RP2 code before I did my first multi-point mooring analysis, and had to go to fundamentals when I first did icebreaking analysis, and when I developed several projects that my university education didn't cover because no one had ever done them before) or even conventional ship design. This is true of all trades, from medicine to plumbing. The goal of an engineering education is to be able to understand the fundamentals so as to be able to rapidly perfom a task you had never done before, either because you are new to it or everyone is.

The main difference between Webb, etc. is that their goal is to give a background that can be expanded with further experience and training. The yacht programs teach basic methods and rules of thumb without the fundamental background. A yacht program may seem to get you down the road a bit faster, but is quite limiting, especially if technology changes.

Do they teach aerodynamics ? - They did when I was in university, and the Webbies I know understand it. They can even do a vortex lattice analysis and understand what the big gun CFD programs that analyze sails are doing in detail. You should also understand that some stuff hides as other stuff. Most of what is involved in keel design is part of ship maneuvering theory and rudder design.

Someone who is interested and has a strong technical background can read the fundamental papers, understand the math, can apply it correctly and produce a successful product. Some university naval architects are interested in yachts and have done their homework and know more about yacht design than Westlawn has ever thought of, even if they aren't in the field. Others don't care about yachts and don't know. However, the idea that naval architecture schools don't teach yacht design is sort of like saying that veterinary schools don't teach camel medicine, because they only cover cows, horses, cats, and dogs.

As far as the basic question, though, the real point here is that anyone who has a sound technical understanding, gained by whatever means, and drafting skills (this means CAD and 3D modeling as well today) can be as successful as anyone else. Note here that Bob Perry, for example, is entirely self-trained, as are numerous other famous yacht designers.

In terms of success:

The best would be a BS in NAME from university. (Points for an MS)

Second, a BS in any branch of engineering, (Points for an MS) with self-education in yacht design.

Third, a vocational degree in drafting or engineering technology, any branch, and self-education. (Near this would be a short term residential, non-university program in yacht design, perhaps better, perhaps not, but close.)

Fourth, a mail order certificate in yacht design.

Fifth, only self-education.

This does not mean that the first path is the only one, but it is the most likely to result in success. Other paths will require more effort, or better basic talent, or whatever.

The next question to ask is what you have that is special and unique. How will you answer the question "why should I hire you instead of ...". You should be able to have some answers for this now, and your training path should go to enhancing this.

As to success. One difference between music and yacht design is that the few very successful musicians are multi-millionaires. The few successful yacht designers make a reasonable middle class salary. Another is that every wedding, bar mitzvah, piano bar and nightclub needs a musician. Almost no one needs a yacht designer. There are probably fewer than three hundred yacht designers in the US who make a living at any level, and this is probably about the same proportion as in any other wealthy nation. This means that there are only a dozen or so openings a year, and the competition (see above) is tough.

 

fede,

“We see so far because we stand on the shoulders of giants” Sorry, I can’t place the origin, but it was said in relation to boat design on a different forum. The fundamentals of yacht design are well documented and have changed very little over the years. The boats we see designed today are at best incremental improvements over boats of the past. The big changes are in materials and technologies using the same fundamentals. To become a good boat designer you must have a firm grasp of these fundamentals. With this knowledge you have a place to begin. You will also need experience and artistic talent.

My opportunities are limited, but when I can I try to spend time with people who can afford to buy nice boats. Few of them know what prismatic coefficient is or even care. They aren’t interested in a .6 percent increase in efficiency. You’ll hear them talk of looks and feel. That is what sells small boats.

If you want to design small boats there are many paths and none are easy. For some, many of the paths are blocked so you take the one that isn’t and make the best of it. Take it one step at a time, you’ll get there. Remember to smile, it helps.

Gary

 

Hello.I did westlawn between nov.97/march 03 and finally graduate from it.I am 25yo.It was hard.I am still unemployed, 7 months later.But,I love the united states because they teached me something,(yacht design)and because westlawn was my american dream,and I succeedin it and therefore I gained self-assurance.Westlawn was a victory for me and the day I graduate was a victory day for me.And all westlawn staff was warmfull and amazing(mrsM.Rieder,mr C.Pippin,mrE.Ansah,mr K.Kear and mr J.Backus).I wish mr D.Gerr and the team good luck cause he too was a reference for me.
PS:great hello for my friends of the old conference center of west.:W.wills,J.nicholson,A.boyd...and all that were in westlawn betwwen 97/2003. lucas.Hey friends feel free to e-mail me!

 

Thanks, you are all helping me!
I had some "suspects" I just wanted to see what other people had in mind...

 

Guest's "In terms of success" list has a notable omission, albeit one that involves being in a different country to the USA - the Southampton Institute's 3-year degree course in Yacht and Boat Design. Not ship deign, not Marine Engineering (although it will allow you to earn money in those fields). but straight yacht design.
It is not for everyone, but for those who have the time, the inclination, and the location (UK), it is the best yacht design course in the world. Actually, it is the ONLY degree'd yacht design course that I have ever heard of.
Steve

 

As a new student to Westlawn, these postings have been very interesting to me. I think that I have realistic expectations of what I will or will not be able to do once I complete the program.

I am curious to know though if "Guest" is "happily working in the marine industry" and if so doing what. It would seem apparent that he has extensive education and I only wish that I had been wise enough at an early age to have the motivation to follow that path. With that said, I am still satisfied with where I am today at age 38, and I am looking forward to progressing as a student and perhaps someday a designer.

FEDE, do not get discouraged. If you want to be "happily working in the marine industry" then do whatever you can to get there. If all you can do right now is a Distance Learning Program, then do that. There is nothing more worthwhile than following your dreams.
v/r
Sean

 

Southhampton

I have a great deal of respect for the Southhampton program. I worked in the next desk to a Southampton grad for a couple of years in London. However, it is worth noting that we were in the offshore oil industry supporting North Sea operations of a UK oil major (which is thus a tribute to the Southampton program and an illustration that a good technical education is readily used outside its nominal description).

I have worked in shipyards building small (commercial) vessels for ship design firms, in the oil industry, for defense contractors, and now am in military small craft design, both high speed and low spped. I have done some yachts, both sail and power as well, including a production design for a major builder.

Again, life and our earlier choices constrain the rest of our choices, and we have to make the best of them, but it is important to know as much as possible to be able to make good choices. I grew up in a shipyard town, and my father was in the ship marine industry, so it was just the done thing to go into shipbuilding. However, by the time I got out of school the yard was just about dead, and later closed. However, though I like messing around with rec boats, my interest has always been in commercial and military craft, though actually my interest is in solving interesting technical problems.

Yacht design is a very difficult field to survive in. There are many more people who want to be yacht designers than there are opportunities for, and university degrees are becoming a common credential, even in rec boats. In the past, the calculations and analyses that a real NA could do were too expensive for rec boats, so everyone had to use the same rules of thumb and approximations. With computers, this is no longer the case, and even CFD and FEA are within the reach of a one-off project, so for many more sophisticated projects, degreed designers have an advantage. The results and experience of this work then feed into less demanding work as well, so that designers can apply some of the lessons learned to less well funded projects.

However, non-university training in yacht design can be well used in other fields such as boatbuilding, surveying and brokering, so if you just want to be in the rec boat industry, it might be a good idea. However, here too, venues such as ABYC training, IBEX or Professional BoatBuilder's online programs are an alternative to a pure design program.

However, non-U training is inadequate (alone) for employment in commercial or military vessels, and there is currently a shortage of new people in this area. If you like the technical problems of naval architecture, then commercial or military is the way to go (because there is a good deal of opportunity) and either a university degree or a trade school in drafting follwed by a drafting apprenticeship (if university training is out of the question) is the way to go.

You have to decide what aspect of boat/ship design you are interested in, where your talents lie and where you can go from here, then do it, but do know what you are getting into before you spend time and money.

The main reason I am writing this is because whenever I was working in design firms or shipyards, I have had to turn away numerous eager, hardworking young people who had spent tremendous effort on training that would not let me hire them. I was often the latest in a long string of rejections, and it was very sad, and a needless waste of talent and effort. If you want to do this, fine. Some people have made a success, but know well what you are getting into.