Any Tricks/tips for Wetting out Biaxial cloth ???

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by tpenfield, May 1, 2019.

  1. tpenfield
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    tpenfield Senior Member

    Not sure there are any secrets or tricks to wetting out (saturating) DBM1708 cloth (which is a fairly heavy biaxial stitched cloth with mat backing).

    In my prior glassing work on boat restoration, I have used a shallow resin pan and soaked the cloth in resin for a couple of minutes then folded the cloth over for a few more minutes to let the resin continue to soak in. Alternatively, I have pre-soaked the area that the cloth is being applied to and laid the cloth up to the soaked area so the resin wets from the surface outward through the cloth.

    On my swim platform project, I am working with larger pieces of cloth ( 8 ft x 2 ft, typical), which seem harder to wet out.

    I tried laying the glass out on a table mat side up and spreading the resin out over the cloth, then folding the cloth in half facing mat-to-mat to let the resin soak in (sort of like soaking ("booking") of pre-pasted wallpaper). I still did not get a very even saturation of the cloth and had to work it with the resin roller. I am using 100-125% of resin for the volume of cloth, but still it seems like a struggle to wet out biaxial. . . . might be because the weave is so dense.

    Just wondering if there are any secrets or tricks that folks have found work better. The resin is AOC Vipel (Vinyl Ester) laminating resin.
     
  2. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    I don't do much with VE. I use the methods you described with PE quite often. They work well for me with small pieces of cloth (1sq yard or less).

    I now only do repairs. When I worked in a build shop, we used squeeze rollers and a bathtub to saturate epoxy into 50 foot long full width rolls. Think super sized antique washing machine antique washer.jpg

    2x8 is large to hand saturate but small for mechanical assistance.
     
  3. tpenfield
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    tpenfield Senior Member

    Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of some sort of roller mechanism, but probably not worth it for the size of pieces I am dealing with.

    Also, have thought about pouring the resin out on the table and then laying the cloth on top of it so it's soaking in. Might end up wasting resin though . . . :(:confused::rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  4. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Squeeze rollers don't play well with CSM. The big sheets we used in the epoxy roller bath were simple bi-axial no attached CSM.

    One trick I use for long strips is to roll them up dry. Place then into a Ziploc bag, pour in some resin. Close it up and massage for a minute. The rolls came out evenly wet out. Bit tricky findings 2ft baggy. Perhaps a seal-A-meal?
     
  5. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    I know very little about these things but I read that CSM stitched to biaxial doesn't have sizing that dissolves in the styrol. Maybe that explains why it's harder to wet out with vinylester? The sizing might help with soaking up the resin.

    Ross from "Life on the Hulls" youtube channel has a pretty sweet setup for hand laminating (external catalyzing spray gun), but he still does a lot of rolling with a resin roller.
     
  6. tpenfield
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    tpenfield Senior Member

    Styrol . . . that's German (right? :) )
     
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  7. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    I don't know anymore!!! Haha, but yes it is.
     
  8. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    I normally pour the resin on the substrate and roll it a round with a fuzzy roller, but leave it very wet.

    I don’t often wet out the under side of the glass. But when it’s needed, lay the glass in place, fold half of it back over itself, wet out the substrate and the back side of the glass as needed. Lay it back down on the substrate and do the other half, or roll out the first half if you think it will take a little time.

    You won’t waste any resin.
     
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  9. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Hi,
    I'm thinking maybe you're being a little shy with the resin. I'm used to metric but pretty sure 1708 is equivalent to 600 gram per square metre plus 225 gsm chop.. so if on a core or porous substrate add 100 to 150 gsm of resin just to wetprime into the substrate then add 600 for the stitched fabric and say 550 for the choppy totalling 1250grams gsm for the 825 gsm of fabric which seems closer to 1.5: 1 or 150% if that's how you express it, leave a bit in reserve because it is good to get the ratio down & multiple layers you may scavenge some resin up(& leave out the pre wet/prime)- some peelply and a squeegee will help too to finish, just squeegee gently & not too quick. I see heaps of stuff on "the best ratios" but dry fibre is unsupported fibre, also that stink in the air is material leaving the layup- better a just a little too wet than too dry. After a while you'll work out pretty accurately what's required, there's even an allowance for hangup in the bucket and what's left in the roller.
    All the best from Jeff
     
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  10. Pylasteki
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Pylasteki Junior Member

    I agree with waikikin, if you are having a slow wet out mix more resin. 8 ft by 2 ft is small enough that you can mix to be resin rich, get saturated, and squeedgee and mop up any excess with some t-shirt material as you don't need many ounces of excess to get things wet.

    I use a 1/2 inch nap yellow fuzzy paint roller, and a disposable painters tray, and unless you've got a lot of curves on the part my process would be to wet the whole piece with resin, lay the dry cloth down and fold it back to 4 feet, wet the back and lay the wet side where it is supposed to go. If you put enough resin on the piece the mat on the piece you didn't fold up will take up a bit of what is available. Then air roll from the side you wet the back of toward the dry, and roll out the excess. I use a 2 inch chip brush to dab small dry spots and touch up the edges. Vertical faces get drain back, but horizontal parts you can normally wet almost to the edge wetting the part and air roll it out so that you get less on the shop floor.

    If by wet out, you mean totally fill the weave. The goal between layers isn't to end up with a slick surface... Just take a hard 36 grit grinding disc between layers and scrub it around to knock the nibs down. On your last coat if you fill the weave with some veil mat or even 1 1/2 mat you fill the weave with mat instead of resin and you'll get less print through and something to sand if you need too.

    On big stuff with epoxy, I'll use a 4x8 plywood table with 5 mil plastic stapled to it. Use the same fuzzy paint roller and wet out the cloth, then wrap it around a PVC pipe once wet into a burrito. Helps when you are doing full width off the rolls, sheathing hulls if you have scaffolding in the way. Then wet the side of the hull, and unroll it. Takes three hands... and an air roller for everyone unless you've got elbow length gloves and make love to the boat to get it stuck...
     
  11. KD8NPB
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Location: South Carolina

    KD8NPB Junior Member

    Wet it out with resin until it won't absorb anymore. Use a paint roller.

    Roll it with a paddle roller of your choice (finned or hybrid).

    Squeegee the paint roller with your gloved hand to wring it out, then roll the excess resin off the top.

    If you want super accurate resin consumption, I would recommend bag infusion.

    Special note ; F085 is a weird choice. It's a specialty resin designed for corrosion resistance and crack resistance. It is primarily used for piping. It is normally shipped unpromoted / unaccelerated, meaning, you need to blend 6% Cobalt Napthenate and Dimethylaniline in order to achieve your desired geltime. Without the CO + DMA, it will never gel, no matter how much MEKP or CHP you add. Are you sure you have the right stuff for your job?

    Standard spec initiator for Vipel F085 is 90% Cumene Hydroxide.
     
  12. tpenfield
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    tpenfield Senior Member

    Thanks folks for the input.

    I tried a few things . . . what seems to work best is applying a faint spray of 3M 77 adhesive to the cloth, then adhere 0.7 mil plastic sheeting (i.e. drop cloth) to the surface. Then I flip the piece over and wet out the mat side as per usual. I also bumped my resin allotment about 10%. The resin seems to wet out nicely by itself without much coaxing since the adhered plastic keeps it within the confines of the cloth.

    Then I pick up the piece and lay it on the substrate. The adhesive dissolves with resin contact. I work the resin roller a bit and then remove/discard the plastic. :)
    I found this method is particularly useful when applying Woven Roving, as the adhesive keeps the strands together during cutting & handling.

    BTW - Resin is AOC Vipel F010 TBN-23 (nothing said about Vipel F085 . . . what is that anyway ??? :confused::oops::rolleyes: )
     
  13. KD8NPB
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Location: South Carolina

    KD8NPB Junior Member

    Really not needed to glue down. You can simply pre-wet the surface you are applying against, then wet out the top and roll it.


    F010 is still a weird choice, it’s a resin designed for corrosion resistant applications, such as SMC / pulltrusion. H100 is their boatbuilder vinylester

    The only reason I know the F085 is from doing LRTM tooling.
     
  14. fallguy
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    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    For 1708 in epoxy resin, I weigh the glass and figure wetout at 100%.

    So, for my resin, glass weight is 2#, for example..

    Resin is 9.01/gallon.

    2.0/9.01 * 128 = 28.41 and round up to ez math for wetout.

    2-1 ratio resin

    20 oz resin
    10 oz hardener

    40% of it on the substrate. Roll it out with a pvc tube on roller frame.

    Glass over it. Roll again dry.

    Dump the rest or say 40%.

    Roll and finish dry spots with balance.
     

  15. tpenfield
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    tpenfield Senior Member

    I tend to figure the resin, based on volume of cloth, rather than weight. This whole weight approach seems to round-about to me, because you need to get back to volume anyway.

    I did find some information that explains why I was having issues with the wet-out. I had mic'ed the thickness of the DBM1708 at 0.032". However, I come to find the spec for the thickness is 0.044". Not sure why I micrometer'ed it at a bit less :confused:.

    Anyway, doing my volume calc's it would indicate I should use 32 fl oz of resin per square yard of cloth, whereas I started off using about 24 fl oz of resin.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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