Any alternative for this kind of 20'container transport?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Lemans, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. RonL
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    RonL Junior Member

    Gen Pole Trucks

    Hi Lemans,

    Two examples of pole use.

    bluerigmove-rigmoving.jpg

    home_img1.jpg
     
  2. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    looks like a good case for a landing barge type of set up low, wide ,and more stable made to carry heavy loads plus could possibly use the roll on roll off thing as well . !!:confused:.
     
  3. rfleet1066
    Joined: Feb 2012
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    rfleet1066 rfleet1066

    Container transport

    I am building a vessel that may be uniquely capable of this requirement. The Sebastian Marie will be Christened in about six months.

    Ryland
     
  4. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    @Stumble
    spud barge

    I found it. Definitely a good system! Thanks.
    About the engines... you are right about using a tow-boat but Petros has an idea I like too. Replace the container with a cabin and you can use the boat as cruiser or diving platform.

    'As for hull shape. I would stick with a flat barge. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel, here. Flat bottom barges work great, are well known, and don't take much skill to build. Just some flat plate, a welding machine, and maybe some I-beams.'
    Don't you think I could go a little faster with a different hull shape in unloaded condition? OK, perhaps a bit early as no unloaded weight is calculated...also need to choose the building material first.
    'As for material, I would recommend steel'. First impression, I start with 4mm/ 0,140” steel plate.?
    'As for the castor idea.' Getting the container of the boat to unload is probably not necessary, but this castor idea could open possibilities.

    @Petros
    'I would consider designing a catamaran, less materials required'.

    I'm afraid draft will increase considerably... but I'm curious enough to cheque it out.
    'IF the container is mounted with the door to the back they could back the boat up to a dock to unload the container without a crane. If the catamaran had a deck it would also be useful without a container, or you can take an old container and cut some windows in it and have a cabin cruiser.
    These thoughts I will take further into the design.

    @SamSam
    Ok, I get it. I guess if you're going 2-3000 miles a year, extra speed can't hurt.

    Not sure if the extra speed is significant enough to go for the 'hybrid hull'. Calculations will tell.

    @RonL
    'Two examples of pole use.'
    It 'looks' unstable...perhaps I'm missing something.

    @rfleet1066
    'I am building a vessel that may be uniquely capable of this requirement.'

    Can you tell me a bit more about your vessel? It would be stupid not to look at a possible ready to use solution.
     
  5. rfleet1066
    Joined: Feb 2012
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    rfleet1066 rfleet1066

    landing craft

    I have posted some information on the boat design thread, but briefly, my design is a 61 foot sternwheeled landing craft. I'll have some photos this week when the hulls arrive. Thanks for the interest. For your application, this design might benefit as it can be disassembled for transport.

    Ryland
     
  6. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    A construction with 4 mm (0,16 inch) steel plate gives me a nearly 7000 kg (15,400 lbs) hull.
    This will cost me in ready cut material approximately 11,000$.
    I can save some material to reduce weight but it would not make the vessel cheaper to build.

    A construction with 3cm full polyester gives me an increase of 60% in weight....
    Price base material; 6,5$/kg ...this makes 9500 times 6,5 or 61,750$.
    So, looks as the glass-fibre/resin version is extremely expensive too.
    Is this possible? Am I missing something?
     

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  7. rfleet1066
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    rfleet1066 rfleet1066

    hull cost

    I have found that an increased thickness in hull material, (steel) does not affect the hull cost much at all. Just figure more material at x cost. Heavier materials affect the choice of shops that can fabricate. For instance, the shear and brake required to cut and bend .187 (3/16 ") is a wimpy machine when compared to a machine capable of doing 1/2 material. It's a whole different venue. I am building a vessel that could be made of 1/16 steel, it would function, well within any numbers you might find acceptable. But material is but one of the costs. Labor varies, and shops charge more for the heavy machines, if they want to make a profit. I found it prudent to spend more up front for 3/8 material. The cost of the hulls went up only 18%. The benefit? I don't have to go around ALL the logs in the river. Nothing will rust through in my lifetime. Attach points can be assured of rigidity most anywhere, even more intersecting a bulkhead.

    If you want to build a noble vessel that will endure, use more metal. If it's a temporary thing, or a one shot deal...............or the money just isn't there? Then you get a computer geek to buils a lock and tab fabricated hull with minimum material. That's a whole different engineering task. In theory the thin skinned hull will work just fine. I will be cheaper in more ways than one. It would be fun to test the built-up hull versus the hull with metal mass. I can reflect with built-up wings on aircraft that were strong beyond the casual view.

    I chose to build my vessel with excess metal. If that's not an option, there is a fine art that can still make cool stuff that floats. It's really a binary decision after you examine your resources and the requirement.

    I am an not educated. My dogs have diplomas, I do not. I am armed with ignorance. But some things in this boat designing world really engages the few gifts with which I am blessed (endowed?).

    I know a laser shop that can design and cut materials for anything that you can imagine. They have computer geeks that can get very creative. A boat hull or a piece of processing machinery presents the same work day for these guys.

    Please advise any potential requirements.

    Meanwhile, my massive hull project continues. They were delivered today.

    Ryland
     
  8. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    Hi Ryland,

    I'm just an car-mechanic too but this did not prevent me of building a very cheap and very fast race-car from blank paper up to finished beauty. (1998) It was the first 3-class BMW with a nice V8 under the hood. It completed 5 times a 24 hours race with a podium on the last, before they changed the rules and so exclude my car.
    It did not prevent me of building a nice low energy house witch I designed and build with the help of the owner (and friend). (2004).
    So, there is a possibility that I'm able to build the vessel I have in mind and it will have the same characteristics as all my creations. Cheap, easy to build and up for his task.
    What is absolutely indispensable is the input of experience from people who want to share knowledge. Thanks for taking part.
     

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  9. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    self-correction..

    Whiles looking after FerroCement hull information I discovered a thread with nice equations concerning hull materials. Looks as my previous conclusions on glass-fiber material was not correct.
    A steel plate of 4mm can be replaced by 17mm glass/ honeycomb sandwich panel or by a CementFerro panel of 17mm.
    In hull weight it gives me next figures.
    Steel hull: 6976 kg
    Composites: 1537 kg
    FerroCement: 10275 kg
    Let's wait from quotes on honeycomb panels, glass-fiber and polyester in larger quantities....
    It looks as all the 'fiber' boats have a very good reason of existence.
     
  10. rfleet1066
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    rfleet1066 rfleet1066

    alternate materials

    Those numbers present some stunning contrasts. My default medium is steel, because that's what I understand and am equipped to work with.

    I had an airplane once (Grumman AA-1C) that used honeycomb aluminum structures. It had a stark exclusion of rivets. But it was very light and strong. But working with those materials requires a totally different set of skills than I am blessed with.

    Fiberglass is an interesting medium and surprisingly tame to work with. It takes a while to really appreciate these alternate media. Real world tests and application are the best teachers.

    Ryland
     
  11. Lemans
    Joined: Nov 2011
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    Lemans Lemans

    Hi Ryland,

    Don't forget that these figures are CAD figures so in the real world they will vary a bit.
    I have a bit of experience with honeycomb and composites (body and 'down-force plate' race-car)
    so I'm not afraid to use it.
    In one of my first post I asked if anyone has used the container as structural base and to link the pontoon parts together.
    On the drawings you see 'add ons' connected to the container to support the pontoon parts.
    There is also a stainless steel ladder-frame (apr. 500kg) to distribute the weight of the container.
    I wonder if a plywood structure covered with glass is not an option?

    Johan

    PS; - flying in 'exiting' weather pumps more adrenaline than racing....
     

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  12. rfleet1066
    Joined: Feb 2012
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    rfleet1066 rfleet1066

    The container transport

    It might be clever to make modular brackets that attach to a round hull in a 'hose clamp' fashion so the thing can be assembled by two men with hand tools. Varied numbers of these brackets might be considered according to load, water conditions, etc. And wouldn't it be cool to have zero modification to the container?

    You have an interesting application to consider.

    Ryland
     
  13. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    So without the container the boat is unusable? What happens when out at the container ship, with waves and all, and they take off the empty container and all the strength of the boat disappears? Then they put a loaded one on, in the waves and all, but it won't contribute strength to the boat until you have hooked that frame to the new loaded container..?
     
  14. rfleet1066
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    rfleet1066 rfleet1066

     

  15. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    So in between the time they put the load on the boat and the time it takes to rig up the container to add strength, the boat is fully loaded but weakly structured? In the waves and all?
     
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