Anti Capsize / Damage and Sails

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Fanie, Dec 8, 2007.

  1. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    LOL my anger management classes must be verking :D

    Cheers Masalai
     
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  2. DungBeetle
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    DungBeetle Junior Member

  3. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    That is just far too hi-tech..... Devices to make up for lack of common sense? That sort of idjit should remain PERMANENTLY tied to the dock, have a fridge packed full of booze and every time a dingy was rowed past the rocking from its wake may make them "enjoying life on-board" seasick & vomit.

    To even contemplate such a device leads me to believe the owner never sails, is anal retentive and definitely should not sail a cat. Technology is not a replacement for common sense and good seamanship.

    If you feel the above-mentioned device is a "must have" you should not be sailing, or have a competent (paid) crew to sail the cruising vessel!
     
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  4. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Yes and don't get personal its bad form.

    Please list the five companies.

    Personally I would never trust such a device (as linked) as it involves electronics. In the conditions that lead to pitchpoling you cannot rely on anything that is complex or prone to failure. We are talking more extreme conditions here, things that are usually reliable can and do break, the most incredible series of failures and events can conspire to cause trouble.

    Its much like the Swiss Cheese Aircraft crash theory. Basically modern aircraft have myriad systems to avoid crashing, there are typically something like seven systems that have to fail of be "end run" for a crash to occur... The analogy is lining up seven holes in seven slices of Swiss cheese, an unlikely event but yet somehow it manages to happen.

    My experience at sea is that generally things are great and work as intended, but when things start to really go wrong the knock on effects can be mind boggling. In my book complexity is dangerous, I have just spent a year refining and distilling the systems on my boat, I have removed heaps of fittings and the result is a simpler, faster and I feel safer boat to sail.

    Be interested to see the five devices.
     
  5. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Seamanship being the operative word, boat handling skills are very underrated in this world of "boy racers".
     
  6. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    You know one of the main issues I have with an unattended quick release cleat for a mainsheet is to do with the mainsheet more than the "system" itself. They get caught and snagged at the worse possible moments, usually when the boat is in chaos for some reason (Murphy!)... If the conditions warrant it you really need to be doing the job yourself. I can't see anything changing that for me at least.
     
  7. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Ah ! Now we get to the real bottom of it.

    Lemme explain the electronics for you -

    There are 2 'types' of electronics, ok. Electronics ONE is a commercial piece of junk made by the millions to sell to who-ever needs a new toy of gimic. Take the Garmin nivu 200W GPS I have. It operates like a toy and is made for (ahem) idiots. I've used it for 10 mins and it irritated me. It's just a money making piece of junk. If you drop it once it's broken. If it gets in the rain it's buggered. It's made like that so you would buy the next one ASAP.

    Electronics TWO is a bit different since it's made dedicated to fulfill a 'super' purpose. Your car's electronics control is an example. Outboards CDI's are another example. Waterproof marine radio's another. Oh they can fail too, as can anything else. Only these are made to withstand a lot more abuse or harsh conditions, and this is the type of thing you would go for if you use an anti capsize device for instance. I would say reliability is high, failure very low.
     
  8. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Thank you heinz, I'm not continental?? but some things get my dander up - I get excited!
    & it is good to see the shrink has got you on the calm & controlled.
    Your calm and considered opinion shows the way after my rant has got the attention - is that teamwork?
    Geeees I can only give praise (not margarine) as brownie points giving by me is disabled???
     
  9. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Sorry Fanie, I don't agree there. Experience and attention to safety & good seamanship, is the ONLY way - remember KISS (a band of some repute) but otherwise very important to remember where to apply it - regularly to your loved ones - remember them, and "Keep It Simple, Stupid" :D
    Get off that bandwagon Fanie. Not worth the effort. Try it and learn, but before Murphy puts you in an "ultimate adversity situation". Good luck and fair sailing.
     
  10. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Yeah thanks for the explanation, I am well aware of the ability of the electronics industry to produce top quality stuff ... but power systems fail, solenoid switches exposed (on boom) to weather in the marine environment would have to be extremely high quality (unaffordable?) to be reliable over time and systems that get used very in frequently also have a tendency to fail over time. KISS for me thanks.
     
  11. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom


    LOL --- You are prolly not far wrong in what you say but to each their own. Mebe one day I will see something that changes my mind on this subject, but I very much doubt it --- I like to sail, not send my boat sailing while I have a drink :D
     
  12. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    The other thing is --- achieving reliability in an solid state electronic device that is fully sealed and outputs data verses a solid state electronic device that interacts with an electric device that controls real world events, is two very different things! I would not actually expect the failings in the electronics so much as the electrics of the system. Capich?
     
  13. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Look if you are really serious about pitch poling what about putting a Hydrostatic Release unit for liferafts on each bow and leading it back to one end of the main sheet. It could just blow the main block system completely if the bows bury, resetting it would be an issue but release would be instant, no mainsheet hassles. Thing is you would have to talk to the individual boats designer about it because in my experience with small cats (never pitchpoled a big one :D) once the nose goes in you have to be very very fast taking the pressure off as the momentum can finish the job regardless of the crews inputs. To me that fact alone precludes any system that simply releases the main cleat as being useful, the friction and delay in running out a high purchase mainsheet system as found on most cats could be enough to put you over even if it didn't snag or tangle. I'd really rather go with seamanship and prudence, prevention is far better than cure here, reef, slow down, watch sea state like a hawk, your life does depend on it.
     
  14. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    The reason we often use electronics is probably because we fail more often than they do. You have to fail at least a few hour's a day or two (sleep) otherwise you can't operate... while electronics only fail when it gets buggered up. It would be stupid to rely entirely on equipment, but don't be stupid to do without it, it is meant as an assistant only.
     

  15. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    We seem to be wandering from the topic, nobody said throw the auto pilot or nav systems overboard. We are talking about automatically releasing a mainsail, no? I think you are handing me eggs to suck.

    Electronic equipment has its place but its generally not a "mission critical" place on my boat (EPIRB accepted), use GPS yeah but set out to sea without manual navigation gear --- no way. Electrical mechanical equipment (as apposed to electronic) is to be trusted even less, that is what this application (Dung Beetles link) would require and that's the part I don't like. The topic being talked about in the context of a potential pitchpole is "mission critical", not "an assistant", to rely upon electo mechanical systems in this context IMHO is not wise. Its as simple as that.

    I have given you myriad points as to why its a questionable idea and I can't see one being addressed.

    If you can come up with a system that..

    1. Releases reliably with out the need for electrical input.
    2. Releases completely and instantly i.e. negates any SNAFU with, or friction generated by, the mainsheet.
    3. Releases appropriately i.e. not under temporary shock loadings
    4. Is easily resettable
    5. Robust i.e. will remain servicable over time despite low usage levels

    Then lets see it.

    Once that's done you also really need to explain under what conditions this device comes into its own for the cruising sailor. Really if the conditions are such or risk becoming such that pitchpole is a real threat the boat should be reefed, trailing warps/sea brake/sea anchor etc whatever it takes to get the boat into a suitably safe configuration. If that can't be done then your in deep doodoo, regardless. This is a seamanship issue, if the helm is unattended then you should have the boat in a "bomb-proof" configuration given the prevailing or forecast conditions.

    If you are a sleep on a multi with no one on watch and relying on such systems one day your going to make headlines for all the wrong reasons!

    Sigh I give up.

    Bye now!
     
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