Another 'Round-the-World' Record Attempt, Groupama

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by brian eiland, Jan 25, 2008.

  1. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    How'd we know that was coming?

    Well, I kinda expected that, Doug.

    Can't quite get it together to form a straight answer when it comes to foils of any kind.

    Sad, really.
     
  2. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Chris,

    Here's a great idea, why doesn't Doug Lord put his suggestions straight to the top man himself?

    In order to simplify things for Doug, here is the website. http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/

    I am absolutely certain, without one iota of doubt, completely confident that Nigel Irens will welcome with open arms and a pile of cash, all the invaluable help, assistance and information that Doug has to offer for the future developments of world record beating foilers, the heights of performance of which, we unworthy peons, could never aspire. :p

    Go Doug Go! Here's your chance for greatness and I promise you with all my heart, if you get the job, I'll eat Chris's shorts. You have my word on it as an officer and better yet, an English gentleman. A rank to which Doug cannot hope to ascend. :p :p :p :p

    I remain,

    Yours etcetera,etcetera, etcetera,

    Pericles
     
  3. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Pericles Senior Member

  4. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Breathtaking video!
     
  5. antoineb
    Joined: Jan 2007
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    antoineb Junior Member

    Couple comments on Groupama

    yes it's a shame that it had to end like this. Comments

    (1) the boat was a very light design, and perhaps a bit too much "just" a scaled-up model of the 60ft ORMA boat. One example was that the aft arm broke a middle section fairly early on, and it was said that the ORMA boat had suffered the SAME accident - but went on and won Jacques Vabre, so they'd probably be fine (but they did repair it).
    Lesson: it's difficult to make light boats that are reliable, and it's even more difficult to compute the thickness of materials needed for comparable strenght when scaling up a boat (for example where you have torque = mass x distance, if you scale up 2x you get mass x8 x distance x2 = torque x 16, and if you just scale up the thickness of the material it will be just 2x thicker).


    (2) the boat (Groupama 3) DID go fast, and was it Chris who said that on this attempt Groupama didn't come close to Coville's 617 or so nm in 24 hours, well they actually did over 700 and topped at 720 if i'm not mistaken. Sure a crew vs a single sailor, but also a boat of similar LOA remember? Also pls remember that Groupama 3 has already come close to 800nm (794) in 24 hours, despite it being just 31.5m long vs. Orange 38.5 (and Orange had achieved just 760 after a few years of tuning).


    (3) I'm not going to enter the foil vs non-foil debate because this tends to get ugly between Doug and Chris...
    For a single sailor who cannot fix anything, I think it makes perfect sense to minimise risk of failure and so there were no foils (or even centerboards) on the hulls. I don't this this is foil vs no-foil, it's more something in the water vs nothing. Joyon and Coville have just a centerboard on the main hull - but Orange II did have a board per hull of course.
    - What I discovered reading comments from Joyon / Coville however, was the true aim of the Nigel Irens design: be able to go on for hours (days) at a time w the downwind hull INTO the water (so actually bumping less in the waves), and the main full just touching the water or even, for those w huge balls, OUT of it! Joyon had his moments w hours of main hull out of the water, and Coville did like 1.5 days running w main hull out of the water, doing 15-16 knots against the wind, and saying that this way he minimised the shocks in the waves! But doing this single-handed you've got to have huge balls (and the boat must have been designed well enough to allow you do do this w/o having to be completely mad)


    (4) I don't really care how the best speeds are achieved, but I care that they are. Joyon has a lighter, slightly smaller boat w less sail, and Coville beat him by barely a few nm on 24 hours. What's more interesting is that Joyon has achieved top speeds of 35 knots or so (instant) and over 30 knots over slightly longer periods of time. So it seems that IDEC, crewed, should be able to do clearly over 700nm in 24 hours. And so my personal belief is that a crewed IDEC (w a small crew of 4-5, not 10), probably would stand a good chance to do at least as well as Orange II around the world.


    (5) whether IDEC could do nearly 800nm on 24 hours, like Groupama 3 (both similar length), I'm less sure. But this has nothing to do w the design (foils vs no foils, fairly classical hulls vs. hull that are sailed sumberged), but rather w IDEC's lesser power. Still, I'd love to see a crewed IDEC take a shot at the 24 hour mark, and I'm ready to bet that they can do better than 750.


    (6) sure, complexity tends to raise the risk of incident (when the technology is not mature), and the probability that something actually does happen, increases w the time spent using the thing. Let's remember that Joyon was lucky to have a great weather pattern (which does nothing to diminish his huge merit, and good for him that the weather helped a bit), and the ONLY reason why Coville didn't leave at the same time, is that he had chosen to have a tilting not fixed mast, using hydraulics, but the hydraulics showed a small leak 2 days before leaving, so he had to skip that opportunity. Whereas Joyon's simpler boat was ready to go, and had no major issue around the world (well at one point it seemed that the mast was going to fall... ;-)
    But, technological progress cannot be stopped, and sure early carbon boats were probably less reliable but now they can go around the world. And, early cars were not reliable than a cart w horses, but now they are.
     
  6. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Thanks for the studied post, Antoine. My comments within your quotes as appropriate...


    Since I do not know of the regime adopted by the designers or the builders, it would be way out of my place to suggest a possible cure for what ails G3.


    Thanks for acknowledging that the difference between a crewed and solo effort is distinct. There is a monumental difference in the way the boats can be sailed as the solo guy simply must grab sleep whenever he can, always with an eye to changing conditions. The crewed vessel has tremendously more leeway in this matter and can press harder, far longer than can a solo effort. If I led anyone to believe I was referring to all boats of this type, my apologies are included.



    Powerful statement to the obvious, Antoine. Now, if only we could get our friend, Doug, to similarly acknowledge the obvious, we'd be into a really interesting discussion. It's clear as day, lifting foils do not always represent the answer for going fast in all conditions. They are but one tool in the bag and should be used accordingly. With Coville and Joyon choosing not to use them, it becomes obvious that prudent sailors should take note of this reality and proceed accordingly.

    I am not against the development of foils for any boat. I simply believe that they belong in specific use application scenarios and not in others. I also believe that they are not the universal salvation of sailing for the present or the future. Soon enough, another whizzy technology will come along to supplant the potential of foiling and then where do the foiler guys go? Why to the next big thing, of course. So that pretty much sums-up their collective dedication to the foil technology rush. The same holds true for canting keels, though they are not a part of this discussion. Sooner or later they will all mean next to nothing.



    I also believe the same of Sodeb'O, Antoine. I see real advantages for Coville in the bigger conditions as he has boat mass to straighten out many of the bumpy situations. Joyon has to deal with them as a lightweight would, bobbing and weaving his way through the tougher conditions, lengthening his route and putting more stress on the crew in the process.




    Our buddy, Doug alludes to the fact that these boats and their lifting foils came right out of the long developed and mature, ORMA 60 process. Yet, here we have a boat that apparently sustained a major hit of some kind in the foil area, if not the foil itself and then later saw the ama collapse from loading extremes. (my take, as nobody has mentioned that it was due to collision)

    Mature technology with serious exposure to damage from unknown sources = flipped boat and end of record pace run (and millions of Euros). How does mature technology save you from that situtation? I guess you could build it from steel... ;-)


    All of those would get the big, SOMETIMES from me. We (my wife and I) just put big money into a just-out-of-warranty Toyota engine due to a seized piston. Typically, these things are rated for 250,000 miles without an overhaul. Still, on the day the engine tanked, my wife would have gladly changed the whole thing for a good horse... piles of crap and all. ;-) Ask me how that engine thing landed in my lap some day when there's nothing going on here.

    Horses have always been more reliable. The change to cars had more to do with speed and convenience than reliability.

    Chris
     
  7. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Shore Side Arrival

    The 32 metre French multihull, Groupama 3, is alongside a wharf in Dunedin harbour.

    She was towed into harbour by a Port tug, after having taken 23 hours to reach the safety of harbour after her capsize 80nm off the coast of Dunedin on Monday.

    All major components have been recovered except for a small part of her mast and part of the port hull which had sheared off on Monday afternoon, causing the capsize which bought a premature ened to her Jules Verne trophy attempt.

    It would seem that part of the port hull had rolled under the main hull of Groupama 3 supporting it in the water, and making the main hull float much higher that would have otherwise been the case.

    This meant that there has been less ingress of water into the main hull, reducing the potential for damage.

    The two into harbour began at 1100hrs and took about three hours in a 20knt breeze and against an outgoing tide. The yacht had remained under tow overnight behind the Clan MacLeod rather than attempting to anchor.

    So ends a very fortuitious saga for Groupama 3, after capsizing at the closest point they had been to land in 26 days, within helicopter range and in conditions which moderated considerably soon after the capsize. The tow to shore was also undertaken in very good conditions, with a storm hitting only after she had been tied up in Dundein harbour.

    Martin Balch reports from Dunedin:

    At around 1430 hours this afternoon, the overturned trimaran finally reached the safety of the Dunedin harbour basin. After standing off the coast overnight, the rescue convoy was cleared to enter the harbour around 1000 this morning. The tow was transferred to the Port Otago works tug, the Kapu, and while progress was snails pace initially, once the tide turned progress was steady at 3 knots.

    Within minutes of securing alongside, the crew were pumping the water from the main hull, which despite 3 days upside down was floating high with the decks almost clear of the harbour waters. The remaining section of the broken hull is firmly wedged under the rear of the main and starboard hulls, helping to keep the rear of the yacht floating high. Two large section of the main mast and some sails have been landed from the rescue boat, the Clan McLeod. The broken section of the port hull was unable to be secured and had to be abandoned at sea, as was a small section of the mast. The mainsail also didn’t survive, washing away and sinking during efforts to salvage it.

    The rescue team had no trouble locating the drifting wreck, aided by the GPS left on board, and initially spotting its white and green hull glinting in the morning sunlight. Conditions were described as moderate to rough initially but improved to ideal for the difficult task of dismantling the rigging and only getting rough and sloppy at the end waiting for commercial traffic to clear the harbour and allow the rescue team to enter.

    While the forecast was predicting 35 knot on shore north-easterly gales building to 50 knots storm force winds, the breeze did not exceed 20 knots until the tow was near Dunedin city, well inside the safe and protected harbour waters.



    by Martin Balch and Richard Gladwell, Sail-World






    Images of Groupama's return to shore
    http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=2&Nid=42074&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickerui d=0&tickerCID=0
     

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  8. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Here is a pretty good photo of that:
     

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  9. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Back in France after righting Groupama 3 in the New Zealand port of Dunedin, eight of the crew of the giant trimaran were in Groupama's press centre in Paris today to answer questions from journalists and web surfers during today's press conference.

    The most important news from this meeting is the confirmation by Groupama's Managerial staff that the adventure is continuing. Indeed, the damage suffered by the giant trimaran is considerable but reparable. Franck Cammas indicated that Groupama 3 was going to be loaded onto a cargo ship around 13th March with an arrival at the technical base in Lorient scheduled a month later.

    The skipper also specified that the current assessment still hadn't revealed the reasons behind the breakage of the float between the forward crossbeam and the port foil casing: 'We're going to discuss all this with the architects, the yard and the structural engineers. If this amounts to a design fault, then that means we were wrong but sailing remains a mechanical sport... We have a working base, which defines the stresses that the boat should be able to withstand and in the general project strategy, we never wanted to take risks: we didn't put any less carbon in it than for Geronimo! We may have to look at our calculations again but the concept isn't at fault. The way Groupama 3 handled, its sensations at the helm, its performance and its Atlantic records confirm that the project is viable: we want to head back out again next winter with a trimaran, which will handle in the same type of way, but without any doubts in the back of our minds about the reliability of the boat...'

    The giant trimaran will therefore go into the yard as soon she returns to France, but in the meantime, the shore crew is already preparing for the work in the knowledge that numerous parts of the boat can be recuperated (rudders, deck hardware, hooks...). The engineers and the designers will also look into means of consolidating the trimaran: 'It will be necessary to rebuild one entire float and reconstruct the puzzle: a launch at the start of November can be envisaged, followed by a month of fine tuning and validation for the start of stand-by in December for the Jules Verne Trophy' detailed Franck Cammas.

    Jan Dekker went directly home to South Africa, whilst Loïc Le Mignon remained in Dunedin (New Zealand) to monitor the loading of the giant trimaran onto the cargo ship with two members of the shore crew from Lorient, Olivier Mainguy and Jean-Marc Normant, who came out to join him,. The eight other crew are already in the process of preparing for new competitions with the Spi Ouest France competition looming for one designs, sports catamarans...

    Interview with Franck Cammas, skipper
    'The weather didn't spoil us and I hope the Deep South isn't like that all the time! We had a lot of messy seas, which was painful for the boat and the men alike... We also had to extend our course to remain to the North of the lows and we were blocked for a long time by a front which wasn't making headway: in the end we had just one good day in the whole of the Indian Ocean! Even that was still behind a low, in SW'ly winds. From New Zealand we had just started to find more favourable seas and winds...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/fc270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Back in France after righting Groupama 3 in the New Zealand port of Dunedin, eight of the crew of the giant trimaran were in Groupama's press centre in Paris today to answer questions from journalists and web surfers during today's press conference.

    The most important news from this meeting is the confirmation by Groupama's Managerial staff that the adventure is continuing. Indeed, the damage suffered by the giant trimaran is considerable but reparable. Franck Cammas indicated that Groupama 3 was going to be loaded onto a cargo ship around 13th March with an arrival at the technical base in Lorient scheduled a month later.

    The skipper also specified that the current assessment still hadn't revealed the reasons behind the breakage of the float between the forward crossbeam and the port foil casing: 'We're going to discuss all this with the architects, the yard and the structural engineers. If this amounts to a design fault, then that means we were wrong but sailing remains a mechanical sport... We have a working base, which defines the stresses that the boat should be able to withstand and in the general project strategy, we never wanted to take risks: we didn't put any less carbon in it than for Geronimo! We may have to look at our calculations again but the concept isn't at fault. The way Groupama 3 handled, its sensations at the helm, its performance and its Atlantic records confirm that the project is viable: we want to head back out again next winter with a trimaran, which will handle in the same type of way, but without any doubts in the back of our minds about the reliability of the boat...'

    The giant trimaran will therefore go into the yard as soon she returns to France, but in the meantime, the shore crew is already preparing for the work in the knowledge that numerous parts of the boat can be recuperated (rudders, deck hardware, hooks...). The engineers and the designers will also look into means of consolidating the trimaran: 'It will be necessary to rebuild one entire float and reconstruct the puzzle: a launch at the start of November can be envisaged, followed by a month of fine tuning and validation for the start of stand-by in December for the Jules Verne Trophy' detailed Franck Cammas.

    Jan Dekker went directly home to South Africa, whilst Loïc Le Mignon remained in Dunedin (New Zealand) to monitor the loading of the giant trimaran onto the cargo ship with two members of the shore crew from Lorient, Olivier Mainguy and Jean-Marc Normant, who came out to join him,. The eight other crew are already in the process of preparing for new competitions with the Spi Ouest France competition looming for one designs, sports catamarans...

    Interview with Franck Cammas, skipper
    'The weather didn't spoil us and I hope the Deep South isn't like that all the time! We had a lot of messy seas, which was painful for the boat and the men alike... We also had to extend our course to remain to the North of the lows and we were blocked for a long time by a front which wasn't making headway: in the end we had just one good day in the whole of the Indian Ocean! Even that was still behind a low, in SW'ly winds. From New Zealand we had just started to find more favourable seas and winds...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/fc270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Franck Proffit, watch leader
    'The story ended very radically whilst we were still inside the round the world record time. Despite difficult weather, we got off to a great start, but the conditions weren't in our favour, especially in the Indian Ocean. The boat is exceptional. It's very quick, with a fabulous crew and the alchemy was positive for producing a great performance...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/fp270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Steve Ravussin, watch leader
    'Going as fast as this for so long is something I've never done! It's a fairly stressful pace when you're down below but we never pushed the boat too far in my view. Unfortunately, the seas were often very difficult...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/sr270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Sébastien Audigane, helmsman
    'Groupama 3 is a very, very, very quick boat! Of course, in big seas, Orange II was more pleasant but the trimaran's potential is remarkable and things should go well next winter...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/sa270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Frédéric Le Peutrec, helmsman
    'Between Club Med and Groupama 3, which are of a similar length, the trimaran is a lot faster and has much greater potential! Orange II is at the other end of the scale and passes better through the water, but that's not enough... This type of boat requires a lot of concentration and selflessness, but we never experienced the kind of stress you can encounter sailing single-handed on a 60 foot trimaran!'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/flp270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Ronan Le Goff, bowman
    'We all knew at the start of the Jules Verne Trophy that it wouldn't be easy! But we'll make another attempt next year...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/rlg270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Jacques Caraës, bowman
    'In this type of challenge, it's the seas which let you past as Francis Joyon said on his arrival. They didn't let us past... Groupama 3 has the ability to be in phase in the transition zones, which is a huge asset in relation to Orange II. The Indian Ocean is always hard and powerful and we suffered behind a front. On Orange II though, we didn't have the sea breeze and the catamaran just slipped along... I also believe that carbon has a memory and that's why it broke.'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/jc270208a_fr_e.mp3

    Interview with Yves Parlier, navigator
    'Finding yourself on shore after two hours with this incomplete circumnavigation is a strange sensation: My head is still in this round the world and my mind is still thinking about the days which were set to follow, where we were set to make really good speed at the start of the Pacific Ocean...'
    http://www.windreportmedia.com/sailing/groupama/yp270208a_fr_e.mp3

    The crew of Groupama 3
    Franck Cammas: skipper & watch leader 1
    Franck Proffit: watch leader 2
    Steve Ravussin: watch leader 3
    Yves Parlier: navigator
    Sébastien Audigane: 2nd helm
    Loïc Le Mignon: 2nd helm
    Frédéric Le Peutrec: 2nd helm
    Jan Dekker: bowman
    Ronan Le Goff: bowman
    Jacques Caraës: bowman

    ...courtesy of Sail-World.com
     

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  10. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    Likes: 173, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Righted and loaded for France

    The broken remains of the Jules Verne trimaran Groupama 3 were loaded aboard the ship Egelantiersgracht at Dunedin’s Victoria Wharf this morning. The ship leaves to carry the boat back to France for rebuilding at 1400 this afternoon.

    The 32 metre trans-oceanic multihull Groupama 3 capsized 80nm off the New Zealand coast, just over half through an attempt to win the Jules Verne Trophy for the fastest circumnavigation of the planet.

    The crew were rescued in a text book operation, and three days later the remaining parts were located and towed back to Dunedin where she was righted.

    Since then the majority of her crew have returned to France leaving a small group behind to supervise the loading and shipping back to France.

    From the Groupama 3 release:

    Clearly the teams working on Groupama aren't hanging about. Three weeks after its capsize off New Zealand on 18th February 2008, Groupama 3 has been loaded onto the Eglantiersgracht, a Dutch cargo ship measuring 140 metres, which is transporting fruit and vegetables to Europe.

    Under the expert eye of Jean-Marc Normant and Olivier Mainguy, the crew has craned the maxi-trimaran aboard, along with the pieces of mast and the float. Strapped down firmly to the deck, Groupama 3 will take about five weeks to get to France, where it will be unloaded around its home port of Lorient or in Quiberon bay in Brittany, depending on which yard is chosen for the reassembly.
    During this crossing, construction of a new mast will begin at Lorima, along with the construction of a new float at Multiplast in Vannes.

    However, conclusions still need to be drawn by the two teams working together to determine the cause of the damage suffered in the Pacific Ocean. These conclusions will enable the structure of the new float to be altered and the relevant modifications to be made to the starboard float, which was spared.
     

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