Another folding cat thread :)

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by guzzis3, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Another demountable cat thread :)

    Hi all,

    I've had a thought. Dangerous I know...If this has been discussed before I would appreciate a pointer.

    The thing is I am not far from water, but I don't have a waterfront, so it occurred to me 2 trailers are feasible.

    So here is my thought: A cat hull on each trailer removes the 4' hulls thing. I can have a beamier hull. so..

    Open deck cat, you cut the bridgedeck down the side of each hull and down the center. Attach the deck half to a hull with a hinge so it swings down (or up). So to launch you tow 2 trailers to the ramp. Position them side by side. Swing each half deck up horizontal. Bolt the halves together down the centerline and bolt to the hulls. I don't know if I've explained that well. Sort of like a telstar inside out. The hinged sections each consist of half of the 3 beams plus some rigid floor, some net and some other minor structure.

    I know cutting the connecting structure into 3 and reattaching it all again is far from elegant but the hinged sections should be reasonably light, easier to raise (or lower), possibly even light enough to position by hand.

    With the connecting structure fixed you position and step the mast.

    I'm prepared to believe I'm missing something, or just mad, but I would welcome any thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  2. pogo
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

  3. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    My 30ft Javelin design has been trailed the length of England using two cars, with one hull behind each

    Then there is always this approach favoured by one of my Strike builders (bit like the camels, I guess that's why its called a caravan)

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     

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  4. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    once is enough?

    G3, of course it will "work", but as is sometimes said- the devil is in the details. I have had some experience with "dismountable" boats. In many parts of the world, leaving a part of your boat, with a nice trailer;), someplace unattended is an open invitation to parts or all of it disappearing while you are gone.:mad: Finding level spaces side by side and then getting the two trailers lined up is also a problem. Bolting big assemblies together is usually a problem as they very often are not quite alined, and the bolts stick/strip/cross thread. Your fingers are usually in danger when moving large structures close together, and your "helper" best be a very good friend- and it almost always takes at least two people to guide and hold assemblies.
    So- yes, it can be done, and in some cases is the only practical way, but just be forewarned.
    IMO-of course:rolleyes:
    B
     
  5. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    I wasn't going to chain the trailers. I though I'd just take one to teh ramp then go home and get the other. Your only talking a few kms, and of course your only towing half the weight each time.

    Anyway, I was mostly thinking of the beams issues. bruceb you are quite right but I think the alignment issues can be addressed. More concerned about the structural issues of chopping up your connecting structure ?

    The thing is it's cheap enough to put a boat on a mooring, unfortunately weather and people are a bit of an issue. You think stuff goes missing off a boat on a trailer, try leaving one on an unattended mooring year round...

    I just thought if I'm only using it 3 months of the year it'd be better off in my shed the rest of the time...

    Mr Woods, I asked this question and one about berths on your forum. Or tried to, doesn't seem to have appeared. Can you tell which which of your designes has a minimum 4'6" berth in a hull along it's whole length ? That is which are the smallest boats with that width ?

    Thank you all for your replies.
     
  6. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    If fixed, then probably the on-bridgedeck bunks on the Flica 34. If you include a dinette bunk then the 22ft Wizard in the cuddy

    Bunks 4ft 6in wide at the foot seem to me to be unnecessary - and you roll around at sea in them. Bunks that wide at the foot in the hulls? I would think 40ft+ from any designer, or else the boat would not be a good sailing boat.

    I think the only boat with a bunk in the hulls that wide that I've ever slept in would be the Twins 43, and they may only be 4ft at the foot

    Richard Woods
     
  7. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Mr Woods,

    Thank you for your reply.

    I take your point but the boat will always be moored at night. I realise there is still movement but it's not quite an atlantic swell. My priority is my partners comfort.

    I think I mentioned previously I have in mind very specific use for my boat. daylight hops up and down the east cost of Australia in winter. I've never been a hero and have no interest in racing nor speed. Pottering in the whitsundays on the other hand is an excellent approximation of paradise..:)

    Incidentally the gentleman who posts here as "oldsailor" gave me a set of your plans some years back. A chined performance cat about 25', gwadhir ? It's certainly an aggressive design, should be very fast.

    Have a good day.
     
  8. outside the box

    outside the box Previous Member

    This may give you some ideas it may or may not help others might be able to add more. Good luck and hope it works out for you.

    http://www.skedaddlecat.com/gallery.php

    REALITIES

    An excerpt from a thread on the sailing anarchy multi-hull forum
    As much as disassemble-able may be less costly than fold-able, for the ability to trailer sail a multi hull, think about this for a moment .
    O.K., so let's just say that it's a beautiful, warm summer day, and you have decided to go sailing. You hook up your shiny new disassembleable SAM-28 to the family SUV, and head to your favorite body of water's launch ramp. Upon arrival, you aren't surprised to find the place bustling with activity, as it is such a beautiful day. You drive through the parking area, and see that there are several open parking spaces, unfortunately none next to each other.

    PROBLEM-1: Your new SAM-28 is 20 feet wide when assembled, so you are going to need a minimum of 2, but more likely 3 parking spaces, side by side to assemble your new toy!!!
    O.K., so let's just say that you luck out and find the necessary 3 side by side parking spaces needed for assembly. You step out of the car, and before you close the door, the wife and kids head off to................wherever it is that wives and kids go when dads are assembling sailboats.

    PROBLEM-2: It is going to be IMPOSSIBLE to assemble your SAM-28 by yourself!!!
    and............

    Problem-2.5: It is very unlikely that you will be able to assemble your SAM-28 with just your wife's help (and stay happily married)!!!
    O.K, so let's just say that your wife just happens to be an Olympic weight lifter, and you manage to get your new SAM-28 assembled in the parking lot. Fantastic!!! Now it's time to get it to the water. No problem, all you have to do is tow your now 20' wide boat to the ramp.

    Problem-3: It is going to be very difficult, if not impossible to navigate a typically crowded ramp parking lot towing your now 20' wide SAM-28 without clipping a truck, trailer, light standard, or person!!!

    O.K., so let's just say that the 3 side by side parking spaces that you were lucky enough to find, happen to be close enough to the ramp to give you a relatively straight shot to the water. As you begin to back down, you notice that there is a truck on the other side of the ramp, launching his 22' fishing boat. You realize that the width of your now assembled SAM-28 will take up most of both sides of the launch ramp. No problem. You patiently wait, while the small fishing boat launches, and the truck/trailer clears the ramp. As you slowly back your new baby into the water for the first time, you realize that she is so wide that there is not enough room to slip her past the now launched fishing boat. You wait patiently for the fishing boat to leave. In the meantime, other boats have begun to line up at the ramp, awaiting their turn to launch. You carefully back her into the water, and, at last, your dream boat is afloat. As you head back up the ramp, those waiting to launch do not appear to be amused with the situation. Your SAM-28 is now blocking both sides of the fairway, not leaving any room for others to launch.

    Problem-4: You have just become VERY UNPOPULAR with all of the folks waiting to use the ramp this fine summer morning. Not exactly a comfortable environment in which to be leaving your unattended SUV and trailer!!!
    O.K., so let's just say that you manage to ignore the angry mob assembled at the ramp, get to the boat, load the wife and kids, shove off and head out for some fantastic multihull sailing. You spend the day tearing up the bay effortlessly hitting 20 knots, in relaxed comfort. On this perfect day, you think to yourself how silly all that bickering was, 2 years ago, on that seemingly harmless little Sailing Anarchy thread about a SA designed multihull . All too soon, the sun appears low on the horizon. You crack off onto a 18 knot beam reach back towards the ramp. You look over at the wife, who looks back, and gives you that little smile that confirms "all is right with the world". What a day!!!!! As you approach the ramp, you soon realize the place is a beehive of activity, as everybody seems to be racing to get their boats out of the water before darkness sets in.

    Problem-5: You now have to deal with (in order) Problem-4, Problem-3, Problem-2 and Problem-1 all over again!!! O.K., now let's change the situation a little and imagine this is a one design regatta. You arrive at the launch ramp, and are greeted by 6 of your closest competitors waiting to assemble and launch their SAM-28s. (see Problems 1, 3, and 4 above and multiply by 6) .......................YIKES!!!

    REALITIES Folks, these are going to be the realities of ramp launching a disassembleable boat. If you don't believe, head off to your nearest ramp launching facility on a sunny weekend morning, and imagine assembling, mast raising, negotiating the parking lot, and launching a 20' wide boat (take a tape measure).

    NO PROBLEM you say. You are planning on using the YC's hoist. Problem-6: You are not going to find any YC hoists that will swing your assembled 20' wide SAM-28 anywhere approaching far enough out to clear the dock.

    Let's face it.............For the SAM to be successful, it needs to be no more than 8-10' wide when it hits the water . And, it MUST be capable of being unfolded, expanded, extended, assembled, etc, on the water . Even better, would be the capability to unfold, expand, extend, assemble, etc, while under way!!!

    Cheers!!!
    -MH











     
  9. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    Yes

    See above- I think that about covers it:)
    B
     
  10. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    something that might make your idea much more practical is to be able to launch the individual hull by itself first, moore it. than you take your one trailer back to get the other hull, bring it to the water front and than launch it as well. than float the two hulls next to each other and than attached them together.

    Typically catamaran hulls will not float stable on their own, so you would either have to compromise the design, or more likely use a temporary outrigger float, one made from a large surplus plastic drum, to get it to float level to allow you pull them side by side, and than make the attachment. It should not take as much muscle to slide the hulls together if they are floating, and it would be easy to use lines to pull them and align them together.

    This way you only need one trailer as well, you leave one hull on a stand on your property while you deliver the first one, and than go back and get the other hull.

    The key to make this practical of course would be to design a deck system that is easy to align and attach while the hulls are floating side by side. Preferably a system could be devised that is self aligning some how, you first connect a couple of pivots that allows you to position the remainder of the attachment points. If you can do this with out any loose parts, bolts, pins or fasteners, than you have nothing to drop into the water or loose. Over-center latches, locking pins, etc. can be made to work.

    once the hulls are floated and the deck attached, rigging the rest of the boat will be easy since you will have a large stable platform out on the water (away from the launch ramp and the angry crowd) to assembly the rigging, rudders, etc.

    You can than perhaps can leave the temporary outriggers at the mooring for your return trip.

    That can be a simple and practical way to make this work. Keep it simple and easy to rig and you can be underway faster than a conventional trailer sailor. And you will only need one trailer too.
     
  11. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Thank you for that news.

    Yes Gwahir was a fast boat, we launched ours in 1982. It was built in 4mm unsheathed ply. I last saw it a couple of years ago, still in one piece.

    We raced it a lot, but also cruised the length of the English Channel (no engine). I think our fastest trip was a 13 knots average for 100 miles across Lyme Bay to the Solent

    We also entered the 1983 Weymouth Speed Trials and did 16.6 knots over 500m. Which is a long way to keep a high speed. I remember the wind consistently dropped as we crossed the course. But it was fun keeping up with hydrofoiling beach cats. And we were probably the only people ever to sleep on a boat that was doing a speed trial.

    I'm slightly confused by your posts. I assume you are talking about two different designs??

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  12. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Mr Woods,

    I thought I was talking about one idea but perhaps in making passing responses to issues raised here I have been confusing.

    I know what I want. I've always known exactly what I want. Unfortunately what I want is not simple, so I've gone down a few dead ends trying to compromise. Furthermore life has got in the way a bit over the last, what ? 10 years...Health problems, work etc.

    I live 50 kms from the ocean but 2 kms from a boat ramp with good access to the coral sea. Marinas are expensive and insecure, moorings are cheap and even less secure, from vandalism theft and weather.

    Incidentally regarding the points above, I appreciate your concern but little of that will apply to my situation. The ramp I would use is not well patronized at any time. We live in a quiet out of the way area. I would sort the boat with dollys and brackets for single handed assembly. Time is no matter. I'll only be doing this twice a year, once in once out. The idea of drawing them together on water is worth considering.

    So in a perfect world I'd have a catamaran big enough for 2 to sail the coast, comfortable enough for my partner and that I can take home and store. Sailing would be daylight hops and calm anchorages at night, marinas where available.

    It would have lar keels or centerboards for my piece of mind, simple rig, simple everything really :) Perhaps to match it's simple owner...

    sango is a really nice thing and you could get a wide bunk in it, but not a standing headroom shower/heads area. Another gentleman contacted me a while ago suggesting we pay you to design a larger sango for us. That could be an option, but meanwhile I thought of the folding deck and thought it worth floating here.

    I've looked at trimarans and Mr Hughes D32 might just squeeze in what I want. Most of the others have awkward accommodations. An F32 might do it but despite the size they have surprisingly narrow berths, even the aft cabin version.
     
  13. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Are you not able to tow a 15-16ft wide boat 2km to the water? You say you live in a quiet area and the slip isn't used much. It would be much easier/cheaper/more suiting your SOR to have a full bridgedeck cabinned boat. You could maybe put the boat on an angled trailer, see the 35ft Flica below

    A bigger Sango would not be trailerable, but would be something like my Saturn

    My wife and I have slept in the aft cabin of a F32 in the rain. Its a coffin and no sensible access to the main cabin except by going outside

    The only bridgedeck cabinned demountable catamaran that I know of was the Beneteau 34. An awful boat. See the second boat down for more

    http://multihullcentre.co.uk/catamaran-s.html

    Richard Woods
     

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  14. outside the box

    outside the box Previous Member

    Don't give up on your ideas guzzi. Have a look at this listen to what Richard is advising he has done more than most have dreamed from their arm chairs and who knows one day the solution will be found.
    http://www.offshorecats.com/offshore38demountable.html

     

  15. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    That's a similar approach to the one I used on our Skoota 28 powercat.

    I have been on an open deck version of that boat, I believe it is still very seriously for sale in Fort Lauderdale

    Richard Woods
     
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