Ankida experimental sailing vessel by Lila Lou London

[Ilan Voyager]

Just remember the personal computer, the modern automobile or airplane were once looked on as delusional fantasies ... actually we and the planet would all be better off without that stuff lol!!!!! ... But then that conversation gets way deep

It's not a problem of delusional fantasies.
Cars have never been considered fantasies, immediately financing was found and cars were sold. And trucks were made soon. The improvements were made at very fast pace.
Airplanes have been taken very seriously from the beginning. Idem for the improvements. First flight 1903, first kit planes sold; the Demoiselle 1908, The Channel crossed by Bleriot in 1909. In 1918 the fighters were able of 200 kmh.
A lot of people saw immediately the advantages of micro informatique and created the industry.
And from the beginning all these inventions had a sound technological base.

The problem is I see the very nice renderings and the left side of my brain begins to starts crude estimations of weight, stability moments. Acht, mein gott surely a new miracle material, infinitely light and strong.

Very funny the butterfly sails and the central spinnaker going dead downwind. The guy has never sailed... I hope they have a good control of the rhythmic rolling and 600 HP winches, plus hyper fast rudder actuators....

That's the problem of these renderings...Lot of details show pure technical fantasy. NA and NE are very frustrating activities, with plenty of mechanical limitations. Plus the stubborn physics. Maybe it's alternative truth? it's in fashion in this moment.

A rendering of a new concept car with square wheels, and the engine over the roof would make me laugh as well...

 

[jorgepease]

I am not talking about the feasibility or the practicality, just the philosophy of an attitude because I have had ideas much less extreme and had them shot down by people who didn't even take the time to understand what I was talking about.

Also no idea ever started finished and bug free, though they sure invested a lot of time into the renderings before actually getting some comparison numbers or facts lol. ))

 

[Rurudyne]

It's not a problem of delusional fantasies.
Cars have never been considered fantasies, immediately financing was found and cars were sold. And trucks were made soon. The improvements were made at very fast pace.
Airplanes have been taken very seriously from the beginning. Idem for the improvements. First flight 1903, first kit planes sold; the Demoiselle 1908, The Channel crossed by Bleriot in 1909. In 1918 the fighters were able of 200 kmh.
A lot of people saw immediately the advantages of micro informatique and created the industry.
And from the beginning all these inventions had a sound technological base.

The problem is I see the very nice renderings and the left side of my brain begins to starts crude estimations of weight, stability moments. Acht, mein gott surely a new miracle material, infinitely light and strong.

Very funny the butterfly sails and the central spinnaker going dead downwind. The guy has never sailed... I hope they have a good control of the rhythmic rolling and 600 HP winches, plus hyper fast rudder actuators....

That's the problem of these renderings...Lot of details show pure technical fantasy. NA and NE are very frustrating activities, with plenty of mechanical limitations. Plus the stubborn physics. Maybe it's alternative truth? it's in fashion in this moment.

A rendering of a new concept car with square wheels, and the engine over the roof would make me laugh as well...

What I keep thinking of when I look at the concept drawing is how much of the functionality sought might be achieved, granted at a more leisurely pace of performance, by simply using what amounts to cambered junk sails in a biplane rig ... just not on a catamaran.

It might be possible to use a light cross-piece brace between sails to help keep them in relationship to each other, or at least from destructively swinging into each other.

 

[schakel]

In short, what does it try to achieve all this complicated structure? Or put another way, what advantages does it have over a traditional hoist?

Twin sails the size of a main sail on port and starboard.

With a twice as big sail-area downwind.

But I have my doubts about the sliding mechanism from the boom along the mast. If it bends, the system gets stucked.

 

[TANSL]

Take a look at the attached photo. It is not easy to surpass that ship in sail area. And you could still add some more sail.

 

[Waterwitch]

I did not see in the renderings the magnetically levitated turbine placed between the masts to provide power for the entire system. How does that work? Are they saying some sort of wind turbine will power all the gear necessary for the rig and keels and to levitate it some how?

 

[Ilan Voyager]

I am not talking about the feasibility or the practicality, just the philosophy of an attitude because I have had ideas much less extreme and had them shot down by people who didn't even take the time to understand what I was talking about.

Also no idea ever started finished and bug free, though they sure invested a lot of time into the renderings before actually getting some comparison numbers or facts lol. ))

The Ankida is presented to be feasible and sold, as any anyone understands when reading the presentation.

I'm open to all ideas which have a sound technical background. They can be futuristic, retro, kitch, useful or useless but there are a few principles of physics and engineering that are mandatory.
After you solve the problems because you are confident that will be solved with some brain juice and development of technology. And you may end with super foilers or the SR 71.

For example the Unirig of the Falcon Maltese is a false innovation but it is usable by a reduced crew. Extremely complicated it's basically a square rig, and it performed as it because there are aerodynamic limitations, so the speed of the ship was not better than a 1860 square rig cutter returning from China with tea. They spend 150 million dollars to discover that.

The problem with the Ankida is first it's not practical with all these pipes, sliding/swinging booms, incomprehensible sails. You are going to need 200 Philipinos. That is a minor problem of over crowded boat.

The true problem is the conjunction of numerous lethal flaws of the concept. I'll pass on the magnetic levitated turbine, non reefable on the summit of the pods.
But I won't pass on the tepee tower of 4 pods because mechanically it's a disaster of weight and lack of of rigidity. 3 or 4 pods towers work because of the bracing, often triangular, that unites the pods together. So the tower behaves like an enormous triangular or square shape with many and many holes, the Eiffel Tower for example. (the Eiffel tower was entirely calculated by hand in 1878, Gustave Eiffel published a book in 1881 with all the details piece by piece for the engineering students, a magnificent job)
In the case of Ankida there is no bracing for evident reasons. The Euler formula being what it is, on such a free length the pod in compression will bend in S unless you put a lot of material and/or use a very big pipe and the opposite pod is working in bending like a free standing mast. Or all the pods are bending masts, just 4 almost free standing masts. Thats very heavy even in pure carbon with a fantastic very dirty windage with articulated connections at the top.
I do even smell vibration problems of the structure with a very strong wind. Have you seen the bases of the pods on the pics? Look ar it.
The sliding/swinging/telescopic booms are a technical joke. That can be done as on cranes but at the price of weight. I presume that 10 Philippinos will be employed to grease the telescopic booms twice a day.
The old fashion RORC 1962 spinnaker with its horizontal roller at 100 and some feet high (not good for the windage and center of gravity) I imagine it rolled with the hanging sheets in the wind. And the booms for the spi are another joke. Never heard of gennakers?
I stop there.

PS For the Philippine members. I say Philippinos because they are the example of exploited underpaid people with no health insurance nor retirement in the merchant navy registered at Panama and Liberia. Add the Bengladesh people and some Mexicans.

 

[jorgepease]

Why stop there - Nearly 1/2 of the world's population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty — less than $1.25 a day.

You see problems, I look for solutions, it's just for fun and this was very obviously not a ready to develop innovation.

... Phew, so what should we talk about, how crappy it is, did nobody have an alternative far fetched idea to add and fuel an air of innovation ... or I guess this shouldn't have been posted in the first place because this is a very serious site and nobody has time for such foolishness, we have very serious business to attend to.

Boring!!!!!!!

 

[schakel]

The Ankida is presented to be feasible and sold, as any anyone understands when reading the presentation.

I'm open to all ideas which have a sound technical background. They can be futuristic, retro, kitch, useful or useless but there are a few principles of physics and engineering that are mandatory.
After you solve the problems because you are confident that will be solved with some brain juice and development of technology. And you may end with super foilers or the SR 71.

For example the Unirig of the Falcon Maltese is a false innovation but it is usable by a reduced crew. Extremely complicated it's basically a square rig, and it performed as it because there are aerodynamic limitations, so the speed of the ship was not better than a 1860 square rig cutter returning from China with tea. They spend 150 million dollars to discover that.

The problem with the Ankida is first it's not practical with all these pipes, sliding/swinging booms, incomprehensible sails. You are going to need 200 Philipinos. That is a minor problem of over crowded boat.

The true problem is the conjunction of numerous lethal flaws of the concept. I'll pass on the magnetic levitated turbine, non reefable on the summit of the pods.
But I won't pas on the tepee tower of 4 pods because mechanically it's a disaster of weight and lack of of rigidity. 3 or 4 pods towers work because of the bracing, often triangular, that unites the pods together. So the tower behaves like an enormous triangular or square shape with many and many holes, the Eiffel Tower for example. (the Eiffel tower was entirely calculated by hand in 1878, Gustave Eiffel published a book in 1881 with all the details piece by piece for the engineering students, a magnificent job)
In the case of Ankida there is no bracing for evident reasons. The Euler formula being what it is, on such a free length the pod in compression will bend in S unless you put a lot of material and/or use a very big pipe and the opposite pod is working in bending like a free standing mast. Or all the pods are bending masts, just 4 almost free standing masts. Thats very heavy even in pure carbon with a fantastic very dirty windage with articulated connections at the top.
I do even smell vibration problems of the structure with a very strong wind. Have you seen the bases of the pods on the pics? Look ar it.
The sliding/swinging/telescopic booms are a technical joke. That can be done as on cranes but at the price of weight. I presume that 10 Philippinos will be employed to grease the telescopic booms twice a day.
The old fashion RORC 1962 spinnaker with its horizontal roller at 100 and some feet high (not good for the windage and center of gravity) I imagine it rolled with the hanging sheets in the wind. And the booms for the spi are another joke. Never heard of gennakers?
I stop there.

PS For the Philippine members. I say Philippinos because they are the example of exploited underpaid people with no health insurance nor retirement in the merchant navy registered at Panama and Liberia. Add the Bengladesh people and some Mexicans.

Well, that pretty much sums up a non feasible project. But thanks for criticism.

Here is a futuristic design that will be launched this spring in Saint Malo.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/unesco-joins-energy-observer-first-hydrogen-ship-57322.html

 

[jorgepease]

That looks pretty extreme.

What about something like treating underwater surfaces completely separate from above surface (targeting catamarans) so that living space is not relative to performance. Foils sort of do this but - maybe - aren't practical for non-racing boats. I am in a quandary about this.

Has anyone seen an innovation like this applied to sail hulls? http://www.bluebird-electric.net/SWATH_ServoWatch_ServoTrim_Juliet_Marine.htm

A method for generating air bubbles would be needed, the hulls can be water ballasted to adjust trim and increase stability, doesn't seem like they would slide so no daggers or keels, I'm not an expert but this power boat flies through 10 foot seas at 40 knots.

 

[Ilan Voyager]

Has anyone seen an innovation like this applied to sail hulls? http://www.bluebird-electric.net/SWA...iet_Marine.htm

It's a mix of known technology disguised in a stars war style. The company is one of the US many ones living on military funding.

The swath hulls (look in the forum there several threads)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-waterplane-area_twin_hull

There are several applications. The main goal is to minimize the parasitic motions mainly pitching. And there are variations. some like the one on the link with very structural problems. Several have been made and suffered serious problems. There was a thread in the forum.
The most successful are the ferries.
http://www.incat.com.au/

Use of air or gases for "lubrication" of hulls and torpedoes. Goal less resistance. It's not cavitation a very destructive phenomenon, it's ventilation.
Has been tried several times.
The Russian did on one or two warships with very high claims but nothing after the prototypes. Several navies had made trials. Nothing followed.
Several torpedoes have been made on the supercavitation like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

The one on the link page is injecting air bubbles in a similar way that has been done with foils. The pic is not very engaging with tons of useless spray.

All this money and technology for a 30 knots boat...yes only 30 knots...
The literature on the page is a monument of words thrown on a paper for looking high tech. I won't take the time to dissect, but I laughed a lot just a first sight.
The survivability of these boats is not close to zero, it's negative. No need to shoot them as something will break soon more than later, making the boat useless. The attrition rate will be high. But a simple trainer with 2 small missiles can take care of the thing in a few minutes. Or a cheap sound activated mine as every thing is underwater and very noisy.

None use for sailing hulls.

 

[Ilan Voyager]

Well, that pretty much sums up a non feasible project. But thanks for criticism.

Here is a futuristic design that will be launched this spring in Saint Malo.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/unesco-joins-energy-observer-first-hydrogen-ship-57322.html

The fashion design is futuristic and already dated. The magic of pics...The cata itself has very classic displacement hulls.
The two rotors, vertical ones, are of model known since ages. Everybody knows these rotors are not efficient but are so pretty. I may have in my hard drive a pic of a similar one taken in Galilea around 20 AD on the roof of the house of Saint Joseph, putative father of the Christ.
The vertical rotors have serious theoretical flaws, but can be useful. I helped in the "design" and made two "half barrels" protos that worked pretty well for pumping water in North Mali. Advantage simplicity and low cost with junkyard material. That was better than nothing, as the well was 60 meters deep.
About hydrogen, the pros and cons are well known.
The boat is a simply a display.

 

[jorgepease]

Has anyone seen an innovation like this applied to sail hulls? http://www.bluebird-electric.net/SWA...iet_Marine.htm

It's a mix of known technology disguised in a stars war style. The company is one of the US many ones living on military funding.

The swath hulls (look in the forum there several threads)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-waterplane-area_twin_hull

There are several applications. The main goal is to minimize the parasitic motions mainly pitching. And there are variations. some like the one on the link with very structural problems. Several have been made and suffered serious problems. There was a thread in the forum.
The most successful are the ferries.
http://www.incat.com.au/

Use of air or gases for "lubrication" of hulls and torpedoes. Goal less resistance. It's not cavitation a very destructive phenomenon, it's ventilation.
Has been tried several times.
The Russian did on one or two warships with very high claims but nothing after the prototypes. Several navies had made trials. Nothing followed.
Several torpedoes have been made on the supercavitation like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

The one on the link page is injecting air bubbles in a similar way that has been done with foils. The pic is not very engaging with tons of useless spray.

All this money and technology for a 30 knots boat...yes only 30 knots...
The literature on the page is a monument of words thrown on a paper for looking high tech. I won't take the time to dissect, but I laughed a lot just a first sight.
The survivability of these boats is not close to zero, it's negative. No need to shoot them as something will break soon more than later, making the boat useless. The attrition rate will be high. But a simple trainer with 2 small missiles can take care of the thing in a few minutes. Or a cheap sound activated mine as every thing is underwater and very noisy.

None use for sailing hulls.

Thanks!

 

[CT249]

Has anyone seen an innovation like this applied to sail hulls? http://www.bluebird-electric.net/SWATH_ServoWatch_ServoTrim_Juliet_Marine.htm

A method for generating air bubbles would be needed, the hulls can be water ballasted to adjust trim and increase stability, doesn't seem like they would slide so no daggers or keels, I'm not an expert but this power boat flies through 10 foot seas at 40 knots.

People have been trying to use bubble trails, created by channels leading from the deck and exiting under the hull, since about 1976 at least. The first experiment I know of was with the VJ class dinghies (Craig Hughes' boat "Nu Hissy" if I recall correctly) and it was also tried on an 18 Foot Skiff ("Hooker Projects?) and in a slalom windsurfer one of the Greek team had at the first world slalom championships in 1985. In no case did it work. Obviously powered bubblemakers could be more effective but if you're going to use stored power to move a sailboat there are more effective ways.

As I understand it, the problem with SWATH sailboats is that the wetted surface is enormous (I think up to triple that of a normal cat), the structure must be heavy, and wavemaking drag is high. They would therefore offer very poor performance under sail power in most conditions.

 

[CT249]

Twin sails the size of a main sail on port and starboard.

With a twice as big sail-area downwind.

But I have my doubts about the sliding mechanism from the boom along the mast. If it bends, the system gets stucked.

But the simple basic physics of having "twice the sail area" arranged in this way doesn't work in such a craft. The rig is shown running dead downwind, or very close to it; there's no other way to wing-and-wing a rig. Even a boat as slow as a typical 11m cruiser/racer is slower dead downwind than when it is tacking dead downwind, and as a boat gets faster it must sail higher apparent wind angles downwind.

A conservative yacht like the Swan 62 RS gets its best downwind performance at around 150 degrees true wind - if it runs much lower it will go slower. At 150 degrees true, this boat would gybe and the spinnaker would not set properly because it would be hidden by the windward mainsail. Certainly the boat would be very slow running dead downwind as shown in the renders. The concept therefore shows a failure to understand the basic physics of a concept that sailors have known and used since the 1930s, at least.