Americas Cup: whats next?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member


    Banque Populaire and G3 can hit speeds in the mid 40's and they aren't flying foilers, either.

    I think that the two boats were as cutting edge as they could be given the time to design, build and somewhat test the potential of different configurations. More time, more wind and a bit broader design window and you'd have seen 40+ knot speeds without too much trouble.

    Also, keep in mind that the wind was pretty much 10 knots and less for both races. I have never heard of a foiling Moth, as interesting as they are, doing 30 knots in a 10 knot wind.

    Other than that small bit, I agree with your post and even that wasn't a disagreement... more an enhancement, if you will.
     
  2. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member


    You had me on board, there, Doug. Right up until you uttered, monohull foiler. Then, POOF! the spirit took leave.

    The next AC event is going to need to be brought together in a no BS fashion in order to resurrect the brand effectively. Putting forth a totally unknown and untested technology at the scale you are probably suggesting is not going to get it where the needs for a good, clean, no hassle race are concerned.

    When someone can actually get a really big monohull foiler to actually fly and remain controllable in a match race style of situation in the conditions of, say, SF Bay in the summer... there might be space to argue the point and bring it to the table. Since nobody is even close to building such a Mars rentry vehicle at this point in time, the possibility is as moot as it can get.

    Ask Larry to consider a flying gybe in which he goes right back to sea-hugger mode and a dead stop. This sends half his crew into a collection of moonwalking dudes, moving right off the boat and into the Bay. He's stuck there retrieving bodies while all the back markers pile into the same general zone with a similar problem.

    A polite, No Thanks, is the anticipated answer.
     
  3. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    What come next for the Cup depends completely on what the Defender and Challenger agree it will be.

    Mutual Consent is the core value of the Cup.

    If they decide to make the Cup more accessible to more teams, they will decide on cost effective, simple boats or use existing designs.

    If they decide that the Cup needs closely matched boats to increase the possibility of good racing they will chose a very tight design rule or use the ACC rule for AC34.

    If they want to see higher performance boats, they have to look at what is high performance today. That would be Maxi Rule boats or big Multi's. Or a new rule.

    If they want to have many choices of location both for the match and for lead-in events, shoreside logistics must be considered. 8-12 teams in Maxi Mono's are more easily supported than the same number of Maxi Multi's. particularly if wings are allowed.

    The wishes of sponsors have come to be a part of the choice too. LV is on record as having an anti-fast boat bias. No ORMA 60 types and no planing mono's.

    VO is the head of the Challenger of Record ... he shares an anti-multi bias.

    What the world sees as the top of Sail Racing are events that get big press world wide. In this arena Mono's dominate. The Volvo is in Mono's, the Trans-Pac, the Sydney-Hobart. The top racing handicapping systems don't include Multi's at all. IOR ... no Multi's, IMS ... no Multi's, IRC ... no Mutli's, ORR/Americap ... no Multi's.

    The ORMA 60's once had 11-12 boats at their WC's ... now ... 0
    The 2009 ORMA Class report to ISAF shows that only 2 ORMA 60's were paid members of the once strong ISAF class.

    Open 60 mono's show 30 boats in the Class 2009 report
    TP 52's show 10 boats

    The Maxi Class has over 30 members and a long history.

    The Cup boats on 1887 reflected what was being raced at the top level of the sport. If that is Mono's the Cup should reflect that. If it is Multi's the Cup should reflect that.

    I suspect that the move will be to "get the Cup back on track" and any new rule will try to be somewhat relevant to other sailing.

    This is a point I agree with Chris on. Mono's are mainstream, Multi's are not. No value judgement from me, just the observation.

    Under Mutual Consent the boats will be what the guys paying the bills want to sail ... as it should be.

    The bright spots for Multi's are the continuation of the X40 iShares Series and the exposure to Mutli's that the AC community has had over the last 3 years.

    That the door has not been slammed on Multi's is good. People and Sailors that would never have considered Multi's are at least thinking of them as a possibility.

    Trying to support a boat type that cannot support itself is not what the AC should be about. Billboard Events should support classes of boats that support our sport. 30-40 members in the Maxi class fit that bill much better than 2 French ORMA 60's.

    That the ORMA60's are next to dead really kills any argument to see a mutli division in races like the S-H much less the AC.

    Randy
     
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  4. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Loved the monologue, but there are a couple of things...

    What's with the pinging on the ORMA 60 class? Those boats haven't been run for what, 3 years now? Most of them have been reconditioned and sold-off to private party's and the class is long since defunct. That's one item.

    If the ORMA 60's were around and still being used, they all would have been dumped by now and wholly new rides built to reflect the current thinking on a high perf multi at that size. One of the French skippers (can't recall the name right now) had a new series on the table a few years back to take the place of the ORMA 60 class. The world economy put paid to that idea when something like only three, or four, sponsors stepped-up to build boats and fund teams.

    The problem with the monohull solution is this: Now that the real race horses have been shown around and even the grumbling audience members have finally seen what is possible, it's going to be really tough to sell the planet on a set of much slower boats. The boats they’ll probably put forward will only be fast looking when there are no multihulls in the same water and powered-up. Pick a mono, any mono and it's a stone thud of a potato compared to even a non state-of-the-art multi... at a smaller size.

    This is going to be like selling fresh faced F1 fans on the blessings of NASCAR, simply because the NASCAR ride is something that "looks like" the fan's ride at home. Perhaps we can all remember back when the late Jimmy Clark came over to drive at the Indy 500 in his dinky, rear engined, high tech F1 style car and sat on the grid next to the Offys, et. al. The thud potato crowd all snickered and told rasty jokes. The next day, Clark proceeded to teach the aw-shucks crowd a thing, or two, about real performance, speed, handling and driving skills. Cosworth engine sales quadrupled over night, as did the screaming sound of requests for Colin Chapman’s engineering skills.

    Now, all of the Indy cars look like F1 rides and are essentially made the same way, with drivers who can step into an F1 machine and at least stay in the game. Oh, how Team Thud will change when you show them the bright lights of truly going fast.

    My opinion... It'll be a sad, lame day if the AC goes back to the thud mode. Sadder still, if they try to sell the crowd that the new AC boats are the hottest thing available. It hasn't been true for a long time now and the recent event put paid to any notion that it can be hidden from view, just because a bunch of dudes can't see their way clear to reality.

    A sad, sad day.
     
  5. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    The fact the ORMA 60's are defunct and I can find no other large multi class to reference is exactly the point. Large multi racing looks like it is dying. The reason for that is moot.

    I have made the same point about the advent of mid engine cars, the owners that raced Indy could have banned them, but they did not. They transitioned to mid engined cars over 2-3 cycles.

    In contrast the top sailing classes have banned mutli's before the mono's got beaten.

    Now the same people that have supported Mono's since forever have seen what a modern multi can do. The door is open. Time will tell if the exposure to faster boats will re-kindle interest. I hope it does.

    The point is that until there is general interest in racing mutli's we won't see them in the Cup.

    There are sailors that place value on high VMG. Many of them probably had no idea that it was possible to have VMG exceed True Wind Speed at all ... much less with a Mutli.

    The mantra has been: Mutli's don't point, Mutli's don't go to windward, Multi's are only fast off the wind.

    All of these myths have been very publicly debunked. Lets see what happens.

    R
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    --------------------------
    Right. So Maxi's for the next Cup? Wrong.
     
  7. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    This is a proposed format that intends to produce better "all around" boats:

    There is no reason that the format for the Cup has to be all short course racing.

    Best of 9 with three Ocean Races that score double.

    It would impossible to win the Cup without winning at least one offshore race, we could see some decent boats. A good Offshore boat could win the Cup in 3 races with 6 points before a lightweight skimming dish could win 5 inshore races if they were scheduled properly.

    The Series would be:
    Inshore
    Offshore
    Inshore
    Inshore
    Offshore
    Inshore
    Offshore
    Inshore
    Inshore

    It would be an end to great large fragile boats in the AC.

    R
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==========================
    I like large fragile, multihull or monohull dinghies and I think they would be far better for the Cup especially after witnessing the performance of the boats last weekend.
     
  9. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Fragile boats are the number one reason that many people don't think the Cup is relevant. Have you been reading the threads?

    "Can't sail in breeze." is a very common comment. It was a knock on the Cup in the early 1900's, and again when they went to the ACC's and it is nearly a shout after AC33.

    100 foot boats that cannot handle Optimist conditions make the AC "a joke" for most sailors.

    Boats are designed for the conditions they have to race in. Rather than try to use rules like "sail there on its own bottom" that gives the Defender the edge, why not just include courses that will test the boats in a wider range of conditions?

    One trick ponies have limited appeal and no use outside the Cup. The J's live on, as do the 12's. The ACC rule produced stout hulls (it was intended to) but the boats don't have a life except as excursion rides for fat tourists.

    *If* the Defender and Challenger want to make the AC less of a laughing stock, they can do so with a simple change of format that requires a combination of inshore and offshore races.

    Fast boats don't have to be fragile boats.

    Inshore races about 2-3 hours long. Offshore races about 100 - 150 miles?

    For SF a race from GGYC around the Farallones to Half Moon Bay and Return is about 90 miles. Could be pretty dramatic.

    R
     
  10. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    It seems to be coming down to what people believe the AC is all about. Of course, it's really all about whatever the guys with the big purses think it's all about. There's no harm in discussing alternatives, just don't let yourselves believe this issue is remotely democratic!

    We already have out and out speed merchants, sailing one way in shallow water along the few beaches in the world with just the right combination of breeze and wave. Then there's l'hydroptere and things of that ilk, moth foilers, sailboarding, dinghy racing and the Volvo. Somewhere soneone is racing indoors, I have no doubt. It seems as though every niche has been well and truly filled.

    Is there a gap in there somewhere that the AC could be made to fit into? Assuming the money would agree, that is.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ---------------------------
    In thinking it over I don't really have a problem with your idea as long as it is accomplished in the most high tech,high performance boats available anywhere-no artificial restrictions on design except maybe length. Powered systems are ok by me because they too represent the highest level of technology in sailboats. I think the boats should be 90-100' on the waterline-big is the Americas Cup.
     
  12. sailor2
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    sailor2 Senior Member

    There are no development classes, where the design target is to optimize upwind vmg without tight restrictions vastly reducing the results.

    There are monohull races against the prevailing winds on rtw course, but those are onedesigns, and there is no such class for multis. G-class is clearly not optimized for upwind sailing. There isn't even records for flat water sailing yet for upwind vmg, neither same in seaway.
    Should someone else be willing to pay for it, I would like to find out, what kind of performance is really possible. Both for flat waters and in rtw route upwind.
     
  13. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Spithill "I'm hooked on Multihulls"
    Talk of a 50-60 foot soft sail multi rule for the next AC during SF Cup event press conference.

    Perhaps exposure to multi's has indeed changed some minds?

    R
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ====================
    Was it said why a soft sail as an artificial limitation?
     

  15. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    No details, but probably for cost and logistics. Hard sails are a huge hassle compared to soft sails when you are looking to base 8-10 teams anywhere.

    R
     
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