Americas Cup: whats next?

What in the world?

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1) I don't know how you can say that with a straight face! Every major sailboat record is held by multihulls. The fastest sailboat on the planet over a nautical mile is a multihull. Fastest around the world, fastest across the Atlantic-all multihulls. The America's Cup is the pinnacle of sailboat racing and will be held for the second time in multihulls. Most of the charter ads I see are for multihulls. And in my area of the country multihulls have the biggest fleets of boats under 20'. In sailboat design, multihulls have led the way with wing rigs and the use of "foil assist"(now being adopted by Open 60's). Multihulls have defined and continue to define the technology of speed at sea. Small multihulls are pioneering the use of foil assist in boats 20' and under, as did their larger sisters years ago in 60 footers. If you're still waiting for the multihull revolution to begin you'd better open your eyes. And don't take too long 'cause there is another revolution already started for monos and multi's.
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2) In light of 1) above accusing Gary of not recognising facts is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Gary sometimes has a gruff way of talking but for the most part he avoids personal insults-so should you......

 

So the 500m speed record isnt a major one? Im guessing its one of the most well known of all the records

 

I'm not sure of the fact, but I believe Hyderopter (sic), has exceeded the sailboards record at 51.63kts.

 

I think almost all sailors - and almost all sportspeople - would disagree with the statement that a faster type of gear is "clearly superior" simply because it's faster!

To use examples that always come to my mind, a racing car is faster (in general, all else equal) to a racing motorbike. However, very very few motorbike riders would say that means that the car is "clearly superior".

Similarly, a streamlined recumbent tricycle is very much faster than a Tour De France bicycle. However, very few racing cyclists would say that means the recumbent is "clearly superior".

Golf clubs and balls are strictly limited in performance under the rules of golf, and courses are made harder on purpose. You could make gear that would allow you to complete an entire round of 18 with one hit, but that wouldn't make it "inherently superior".

The D Class catamaran is clearly faster than a Hobie 16. However, that does not mean that the D Class is "clearly superior" as a racing boat.

Similarly, the International Canoe is clearly faster than a LAser, but the Canoe is not "clearly superior" as a sporting challenge.

A 747 is clearly faster than the slow 1930s-pace planes used for the Red Bull Air Race, but that doesn't make the air race unpopular.

A kite or windsurfer is clearly faster on many venues than any racing cat - however that does not mean that a slalom board is "clearly superior" to a Tornado.

Speed is only one of the many ingredients that make up a great piece of sporting equipment.

 

Sure, multis are faster around a course - that's great.

It's only ONE measure of a boat. There are many other measures of a boat - economy, durability, fleets, racing qualities, ease of use, appearance, etc etc etc.

For many people, these other factors mean that multis, while fantastic, are not necessarily going to be the future. They will, of course, attract many people because they are great.

Referring to speed records is largely irrelevant because pure speed is a small consideration for most sailors - which is why we don't all sail kites and boards.

One of the classes I've sailed to world level is probably the fastest of all racing craft in many ways (slalom boards) so if you want to use pure speed as the only measure then it would suit me in some way. But pure speed is NOT the only measure of a boat's worth and its future, which is why there are more Farrier tris than faster boats, more Hobie 16s than C Class, more F18s than F18HTs, more Lasers than Hobies, and more racing cats than racing slalom boards.

You can show all the speed records you want and that wouldn't change the fact that multis show no sign of taking over the sailing world - any more than boards took over the sailing world when they were the fastest things in sailing.

By the way, multis have held many of the records you mentioned for many years; I think Crossbow 1 was the first recognised world sailing speed record holder, in about 1973. Cat sailors didn't say "the boards are taking over" when that record was taken by windsurfers and held for years. The Atlantic record was taken by multis in 1980. If multis are going to take over simply because they are faster, why didn't it happen 30 years ago?

Answer - multis are fantastic in many ways, but they don't suit everyone for every purpose.

It's funny, but in all these conversations I think I can only recall one instance in which one of the "multis will take over" brigade have asked me why I often prefer monos (although I come from a multi family)..... Wouldn't you have thought that they'd be interested in seeing the reasons people prefer monos? If they asked mono sailors what they like, couldn't they use that information to assist the development of multi sailing? But instead, they just reiterate comments and note that they are faster in certain conditions, which hasn;'t been in doubt since the '60s or earlier.

re the personal attacks - if you can show me any instance in which I have made personal remarks that were not in response to abuse of me or my fellow sailors I will be very surprised.

Unlike others I don't slag off other sailors just because they dare to prefer a different type of craft to me.

 

Come on Chris. Who said:- "clearly superior" simply because it's faster!"

I would go further than that and say that a multi is better than an equivalent monohul in ALL respects----except one. And that is a catamaran cannot recover from a capsize. But it is unlikly to sink, (as a mono will if it is flooded as it lays on it's side), and in many proven cases it has saved it's crew.

 

CT, the first thing that people ask is, "How fast does it go?" Relates to everything, yachts, boards, cars, motorcycles etc. etc. Speed is No 1. But agreed, speed is relative ... but then, what do people ask,"How fast does it go compared to Wild Watermelon or Flying Tomato or whatever is top of the field?"
Guess what was asked when Speedboat did her test sailing, or Infidel when she was launched, or the foiled Nacra 20 ... or a couple of days ago, the first AC45?

 

That seems to be the tenor of PFlados' comment, to which it was a reply.

I dispute that a multi is better in ALL respects. For example, some don't like the feel of cruising cats when day sailing (although they are fantastic in other respects). Some don't like the heavier helm of a day racing cat, even a top class one like a well-sailed Tornado or F16, as compared to the helm of a dinghy. Some don't like the position you take up sitting on a tramp in a small cat. Some don't like the issue of access to the hulls in a cruising cat if you have a low bridgedeck roof or, on the other hand, the lack of vision in many cats with a high bridgedeck roof. Some don't like the lack of headroom in small cruiser/racer multis. Some don't like the mooring and slipping issues in places like Sydney Harbour where there are severe space issues and deep water. Some of us feel that the contest between multis than flip and monos that sink is not an issue because a really safe boat would do neither, and an unsinkable mono is easier to create than a self-righting multi.

There are many other reasons to prefer monos, and many other reasons to prefer multis. Which type a person happens to favour is a combination of many other preferences that people have the right to have. For example, I don't care if a boat heels (I like heel, just like I like leaning to windward on a windsurfer), I really like having standing headroom, I like boats under about 30', I like having lots of comparable craft to race and a boat that turns fast in a short radius, and I don't care about ultimate speed (apart from everything else, I'll get much more of that for less on a speed board) and for those and other reasons I prefer monos for local cruising and racing.

Others in my family have different priorities and for that reason they prefer multis for some applications.

Unless you think that every mono sailor is stupid or ill-informed - and that would be bizarre considering that many of them know a lot about multis and have sailed them a lot - then you would have to admit that there must be reasons to choose monos.

For example, if you like me you wanted a small, cheap moored boat for day sailing, racing and overnighting around Sydney Harbour and you wanted headroom and didn't want a separated accomodation layout, what would you get in a multi?

As soon as you accept that heel isn't a big problem for many people (just like cyclists don't mind leaning, motorcyclists don't mind leaning, surfers don't mind leaning, rock climbers don't mind clambering, mountainbikers don't mind bouncing down rough roads because it's all part of the sensation you seek) and that pure speed is not a major issue for most people, then there's not necessarily a huge number of reasons to go multi.

I've raced multis (big and small), got my mum to buy one to go cruising on, sent my kid away to cruise one, helped build them and helped promote them with feature articles in Oz Sailing and other mags. They are fantastic. But they are not the only way, or the best way for everyone, and surely we should recognise that other people can legitimately prefer other types of sailing craft. That's all it is - respect for other people's tastes.

 

CT, If you think I'm slagging off at the flat earth society (oops, sorry)... well, it is done with some humour - and reads that way, I hope ... not meant to be taken literally, not vicious. But if hyper sensitivity is the norm even with light criticism, well, all I can say is you blokes have never been torn apart by professionals like art lecturers critiquing your work. Now that would make you want to commit hara kiri. But you end up learning to listen ... but also to roll with the punches.

 

I've actually never sat down and worked out what people asked about first, but I've never seen any reason to think speed would be No. 1.

And as you agree, speed is relative. I think when Speedboat did her first testing, the question was how she compared TO OTHER 100 FOOT MONO CANTERS - not how she compared to a multi.

When Infidel was launched, as far as I can find out the question was how she compared to OTHER A CLASS MONOS - not to Manu Kai or Toria (if she was around then).

When the new Hobie F18 was launched, the question was how she compared to other F18s, not against F18HTs.

When a board is launched, people ask how it compares to another board, not how it compares to a Moth, A Class, 18 or ORMA 60.

So yes, as you said, it's not pure speed but comparative speed that counts.

 

No, that has been beaten 3 times 55.65 with a kite now. Was just calling out Doug. Back on topic though, as far as I can tell there have only been two proper ACs in my lifetime, the cat vs Kz1 and the last one. These were what it is all about, pushing the limits of everything. These multi challenger events are never going to stay the same unless the same person keeps control of the cup. So that said I dont really care what they are sailing as long as it is the fastest possible around that course

 

Cheesy.
Of course you are right on .
The whole reason for the AC, from the time of its inception, has been to push the limits---and that means the limits of the technology.
America was the pinnacle of sailboat design in its day.

 

Speed/AC/multihulls

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Whups! You're right Cheesy- I forgot that one which for sailboats is still held by Hydroptere. Thanks for reminding me......

 

America certainly was NOT the fastest yacht of her day. That was proven when she lost her trials against Stevens' centreboard sloop Maria. The trials had been arranged long before, as part of the contract between Steers (America's creator) and the syndicate.

In the early era, the AC challengers came from the UK's Big Class and were pretty much just standard "Big Class" boats. At least one of the early challengers was a cruising yacht down to the piano in the saloon. Leading edge? Hardly.

For example, the 1893 challenger and defender did NOT rate (or perform) faster than the other "Big Class" cutters of the season and there is no evidence that they were more advanced than their non-AC contemporaries such as Britannia, Satanita, Ailsa or Meteor.

There was a brief period during the L X SA period when boats like Reliance were arguably the quickest things afloat - but that changed because the rules were changed to ban boats like Reliance as they were too radical! Herreshofh himself had bitter words to say about the radical boats like Reliance, which is why he drafted the Universal Rule to replace the giant "scow" with more conservative vessels!

If the AC was really about "pushing the limits of technology", the man who was arguably its greatest designer and who knew some of those who gifted the Cup wouldn't have changed the rules to make for more conservative boats, would he?

In the 1930s, the J Class era, the AC challengers were generally not faster than the rest of the UK Big Class; the schooner Westward was the scratch boat in the UK Big Class, even up against the America's Cup Js.

The AC 12 Metres were, of course, often slower than the maxis of their day.

The IACC boats were significantly slower than an IMS or IRC maxi.

So the AC boats haven't been a separate class of faster boats. They've sometimes been among the fastest boats, but the only time they were probably the fastest boats (inshore, anyway) was for a few decades about 50 years ago.

Nor have AC boats always pushed technology. Sloop rigs, light displacement, fin keels, spade rudders, roachy mains, carbon spars, multihulls, spinnakers, genoas, assymetrics, carbon hulls, fully battened sails, bendy rigs and many many other things were well established in other classes well BEFORE they were ever used in the AC. The AC has often lagged behind even the smaller inshore boats like the MEtre Boats - see Uffa Fox's writings on J Class headsails and LWL for example as a clear demonstration of the fact that the AC was BEHIND the Six, 8 and 12 Metre development. Reliance, the biggest AC boat ever, was inspired by the little Half Raters of which she was a toned-down and scaled-up version.

So the AC has often lagged behind in many areas and has almost always been raced under rules that limited boat speed and restricted design development.