Americas Cup: whats next?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 146, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I'll second that. I propose the development and construction budget be lmited to $100 and the sailor must be at least 70, and I hereby volunteer to design, build and sail the Canadian entry :)
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,651
    Likes: 322, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,651
    Likes: 322, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Sour grapes ,or "I hate Multihulls!"

    From Scuttlebutt tonight: (this is pitiful in my opinion)

    AN ALTERNATIVE?
    It would appear that the 34th Americas Cup as imagined by Larry Ellison has some powerful detractors, some of who call it too radical, expensive and conceived without a consensus. Whilst the Californians continue to give form to the race in 2013, there is a group of syndicates that are working behind the scenes to create a new and ambitious competition that could be capable of throwing a shadow over the oldest trophy in sport.

    According to information the people behind this new rebel fleet include Sir Keith Mills of Team Origin, Ernesto Bertarelli of Alinghi, Patricio Bertelli of Luna Rossa de Prada and Grant Dalton of Team New Zealand. Others hint that the man behind the project is Mr Bertarelli, but Alinghi has consistently denied this, stating that it is a group of people who are working on a personal project.

    The idea is to create a new class of boat for a regatta circuit similar to the 32nd edition of the Americas Cup, and the head of the design team is Rolf Vrolijk, the Dutch designer of the previous two Alinghi boats before BMW ORACLE/Golden Gate Yacht Club started their court action in New York, who has dusted off the designs of the AC90, the class originally chosen for the 33rd Cup.

    Another powerful yachting figure behind the project is Grant Simmer, who has now joined Team Origin, and is coordinating the sports and technical aspects of this new event. The project is still in its embryo stages, seeking a concrete philosophy, and finding out if it could be viable commercially, or if private capital would be required from the heads of the syndicates involved. The main point now is to finance the event, starting on the basis that no regatta has the tradition and prestige of the Americas Cup.

    Several syndicates involved in the 32nd edition of the Cup have been consulted over whether they would participate on these AC90s in an effort to determine the size of the fleet. It may be envisaged that 2013 could see the birth of the new regatta, if it goes ahead, it will be in exactly the same year that the Americas Cup races take place in San Francisco
    . Source: The Valencia Life Network, http://www.valencialife.net
     
  4. Tim Judge
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 63
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 36
    Location: Hudson River

    Tim Judge Tim J

    Alternate AC Universe

    While I am not endorsing any particular concept or approach to the 2013 AC, I understand the reluctance of some to pour money into a race where one team has a clear advantage, in this case Oracle BMW. Their design was and is a technological leap, and they have the experience that other syndicates lack.

    I firmly believe that a class, with strict design parameters, and a cap on spending is the way to create a level playing field and competition. Sailing team has to include designers, engineers but also sailors. Sailing experience is why one design racing is so much fun.

    A big advantage to one team in terms of budget, prior experience in the design allows for the biggest wallet to win, not the best sailors.

    I still would like to see a series with a specific class. My concept of races in Js, 12M and the AC Class boats building upto the 2013 AC would grab audience and the advertising dollards and sponsorship that brings. The AC leaders should look to NASCAR for lessons on how to develop a racing series that has captured the imagination of the public and the market that represents.
     
  5. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 78, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Not necessarily sour grapes in any way. It's just that some people feel that there are issues with multis in the AC, or that an event created by and for one discipline of a sport should not be taken over by another discipline of a sport. It seems intrinsically wrong that successful events should be killed or transformed beyond recognition.

    Remember that when the Tornado was (wrongly IMHO) dropped from the Olympics, multihull sailors were the first to say that cat sailing was a separate discipline from monohull sailing. Since multi sailing is a separate discipline, you could say that it should not take over an event (the AC) developed by another discipline (leadmines).

    Similarly, you don't see motorbike racers deciding that the motorbike "grand prix" events (Motos) should be run in F1 cars because F1 cars are faster. You don't see the Tour de France cyclists changing over to recumbent streamlined tricycles because 'bents are faster. You don't see people demanding that the chess world championship be played with queens and not pawns.

    Personally, I have a deep instinctive distaste for changing the fundamental rules of a contest in a way that changes it so radically. If you want a different contest, go make one - be creative rather than taking away an event from the discipline that created it and made it the biggest event in the sport. Taking away a prized event from a community or group appears to some of us to be a fundamentally destructive thing to do. In the same way as we don't hack up the greens on the local gold club so we can use it for BMX racing, or we don't empty the pool used by swimmers so we can ride skateboards, we shouldn't take the leadminer trophy from the leadminers.

    Taking the AC to multis is no different from changing the Little America's Cup to an event for Formula Windsurfers, or making the Ronde Om Texel into an event just for kites, or the singlehanded races into fully-crewed events. And there is no evidence that multis make up a growing percentage of the sport, so it's not as if sailing is going that way.

    It seems to be as simple as saying that if you respect your fellow human beings, you should allow their communities to do what they want in their sport (as long as it doesn't harm anyone else) and you shouldn't stop them doing so by changing the rules to exclude the activity an event has normally been about. It's all about respecting diversity. I don't sail big inshore leadmines but many people like doing so, so allow them to celebrate that by keeping the AC in leadmines like it has traditionally been. If you want to sail multis, create a big new multi regatta rather than killing the leadmine AC.

    How one characterises the AC is a difficult and vexed question. Some of us look at its history and see that every single time people have agreed on the rules, they have agreed to race monos that are generally not the biggest or fastest thing around. We therefore believe that it is intrinsically a mono event (and we can think if that even if we rarely sail leadmines). Some (incorrectly) claim that the AC is always sailed in the biggest and fastest and most advanced boats. Others have other beliefs.

    But while some people are factually wrong (i.e. many are wrong on the history) other reasonable minds may differ about some of the characteristics of the AC. That's what Grant Simmer etc have done.

    For you to call a bunch of highly accomplished and intelligent people, including some with vast AC experience, "pitiful" appears to be indicating that no reasonable person can have a different view on the meaning and history of the AC to you. Objectively, there are many, many, many people who know a lot more about the history, meaning and future of the AC than you do. Maybe you could show them some respect and allow them to have valid opinions even if they are different from yours?
     
  6. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,097
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Here is the crux of the matter.
     
  7. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Actually it should be up to the Challenger of Record to challenge with the "What", or come to a mutual agreement with the Defender.

    The majority of the potential players gave input to the Defender as to what they would be comfortable with (since the CoR did not seem to be involved in the way they should have been) and their input was disregarded.


    I have not read any accounts of anyone involved stating they HATE multihulls or multihull sailors. If there is some account of this can you please provide a link to it?

    It would be sort of difficult to make that case against Bertarelli, given his long history of multihull sailing.


    Regardless, I don't see this going forward. There can't be enough interest to fund these types of programs if the end result is not something of "value" like the America's Cup.
     
  8. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Of course you know that was tried. Coutts and Cayard had their scheme for an "event" in 70' cats to rival the AC. They were not successful in getting anyone to go along.

    So now the AC is in 72' cats, based on the wishes of the defender that is run by Coutts. Of course the only other team that seems to be funded well and seriously into the game is an entity run by Cayard.
     
  9. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,097
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Quote. "I have not read any accounts of anyone involved stating they HATE multihulls or multihull sailors". Quote.

    Try Sailing Anarchy, :eek:
     
  10. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I prefer to stay away from that site.

    Can you at least name the people involved who say they HATE multihulls and/or multihull sailors and quote them?

    Surely not Bertarelli. He's sailed multihulls for decades, and currently.

    Dalton?

    Mills?

    Bertelli?
     
  11. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,097
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    I wasn't referring to Mills or Bertarelli, but rather to certain people, like some posters on Sailing Anarchy. These are sailing Luddites, and I don't need to name them. They make themselves readily available.

    Urban Dictionary: luddite

    1. One who fears technology, or new technology, (as they seem pleased with how things currently are...why can't everything just be the same?) :rolleyes:

    2. The "Nay-Sayers", who are against technological progress.
     
  12. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 2,992
    Likes: 114, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Paul, there are quite a few multihull "racists" (although they have gone quiet with the AC45 launch) at Sailing Anarchy - just bolster up your courage and go there; one johnnysaint comes to mind - but there are other rabid dog mouthfrother ... but to counter this extremism, there are larger numbers of more balanced people to counter the crazies.
    But it is laughable this 90 foot white elephantine project that the disenchanted gum flappers are fantasizing will take over the new wave AC multihulls. Too late chaps, you've got your asses in the non-recyclable bin.
     
  13. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    OK. I was confused by the way your post was written:

    I read that as the luddites/haters being those who had the "bags of marbles" (entries) to take away.


    Just because someone likes traditional match racing does not mean they hate multihull craft or those who sail them. I like traditional match racing, but given the choice for our local fleet racing I would much prefer to be on one of ten AC45s on the line instead of ten Farr 40s.
     
  14. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 78, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    There's more avowed mono-haters (or at least people who say that multis are superior) on SA than multi-haters. For example, there's "Monomuncher" but no "Multimuncher"; there's "Catsrule" but no "Monosrule".

    Searching on "hate multis" brings up only people saying that they DON'T hate multis. There was one guy who said mono sailors hate multis, but guess what - he was doing it in reply to one of Oldsailor's many posts abusing monos!

    If people will (like Oldsailor) post about monos and those who chose to race monos in mono-only races* in terms such as "WASTE of millions of dollars.... a dying breed of Multi Million Dollar Dinosaurs...ugly lump of metal....old fogies....reactionary mindset....pig headed bigotry...nay sayers, with their heads in the sand..." then you have to accept that you are going to annoy some people.

    Funny thing is, a minority of angry multi sailors appear to believe that it's fine to abuse monos and mono sailers, but get very snarky if anyone dares to say anything about multis.

    Those behind these AC monos may not be luddites - they may be people who happen to prefer to sail a different type of boat. Why do some so find that hard to accept?

    I've had a few standing invites to sail multis around your way - I've been putting off taking them up because some of the cruising multi sailors are too bigoted for me. It's more fun around clubs where they actually allow people to like what they like than hanging out with sneering, angry men who have nothing but contempt for anyone who dares to think differently.


    *just as, although some like to ignore it, most sporting events are for restricted equipment types. Motorbikes race in bike-only races, longboard surfers compete in longboard-only events, cats race in cat-only races, windsurfers race in windsurfer-only races, shorthanded sailors race in shorthander-only racers, kites race in kite-only races, and no one complains except those who want to apply inconsistent standards and demand that multis can race in mono events.
     

  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,651
    Likes: 322, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    AC Rebels

    What the rebels are doing is dumping on the America's Cup. Larry won and has the right to choose a new boat in concert with the challenger of record. These guys are taking action with the sole purpose of diminishing the new America's Cup because they do not like multihulls. If they thought that Larry had violated the deed they could sue-but no -they know that under the terms of the Deed they have no leg to stand on.
    I think their actions are a demonstration of the utmost in poor sportsmanship and a pitiful display of sour grapes.

    ---No concensus? As far as I know,there are at least 6 entries expected for the next Cup

    ---seeking a concrete philosophy-I just bet they are! "Multihulls are too radical, multihulls are too fast, multihulls don't carry enough lead, "multihulls can't match race"(BS), but the funniest of all is that multihulls are too expensive!*"
    * Coutts has said that these boats will be less expensive to design, build and campaign. Transport will be less expensive.

    ---** they would do well to remember this!
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.