America's Cup sailed with Multihulls

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by brian eiland, Jun 3, 2006.

  1. Paul Scott
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 371
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 84
    Location: San Juan Island, Washington

    Paul Scott Senior Member

    Riggertoy's comment does beg the questions of how important to boat owners is the Press & Telelvision coverage that comes with the current AC?, and how important is it to them that they have supporters and who? It kind of smacks of the kind of Corporate Fuedalism Shakespeare deconstructs in King Lear.

    Didn't used to be quite like this- did Turner change things? Lipton? The ratio of tycoons who want to sell something / to gentlemen willing to race in private / to gifted sailors finding a way to compete has changed quite a bit since WWII.

  2. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 112
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 28
    Location: New Hampshire

    TTS Senior Member

    I am an avid multihull sailor/racer, but my two cents on the subject is that I would prefer not to see match racing in cats or tri's. There are many issues that do need to be addressed to keep the America's cup relevent and the choice of boat right now is the least of these issues. If we thought that the NNYC had controlled, manipulated and managed to hold on to the cup longer than it should have, look at what Alinghi is trying to put through at this very moment. So before we can decide which or what design to use for the next cup, the internal politics and manipulations need to be sorted out. I would prefer to see the nationality issue swing back in the other direction, a true defender series, which has been absent since 1987 and Freemantle. And to have Alinghi think that it has the right to control the terms of the challenger series as well as to be able to compete right up through the elimination series, excepting the semi's and finals is a joke. So again, forget the boats for the moment and start thinking about how to save the cup from the current defenders and the ever increasing merchandising.
  3. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 112
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 28
    Location: New Hampshire

    TTS Senior Member

    In addition, looking at the existing rules at the time that Alinghi won the cup, I do not believe that they were allowed to host the cup. I would have to look up the wording but it deals with the actual attributes of the yatch club itself and hosting reggattas on "the sea or an arm of the sea" which I do not believe that they had.
  4. ATCSchaefdog
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 7
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Brunswick, ME

    ATCSchaefdog Junior Member


    :!: Ralph Taylor hits the head straight on in my opinion. Have been in two syndicates, it is not always a rational frame of mind that controls the rules. Money and power rule.

    It would be AWESOME to see multihulls racing. I believe the America's Cup needs this to put some new life into the event. To see multihulls screaming along on the edge of disater is high drama...who wouldn't want to watch this?
  5. frosh
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 621
    Likes: 14, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 44
    Location: AUSTRALIA

    frosh Senior Member

    Extreme performance multis racing in a high profile (huge sponsorship and media coverage), would be awesome, but: it has been done, and really doesn't work. Witness the "Little America's Cap" in C-class cats which are in my opinion far more exciting to watch racing than any mono keelboat yet designed. There was little sponsorship, no media coverage, and eventually the Little America's Cup became a low profile event for production F18 catamarans. A very sad ending to what could have been competition for true cutting edge boats, not the current crop of ACC yachts which are not even as interesting as many ocean racing Maxis that are currently hitting the water.
  6. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 112
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 28
    Location: New Hampshire

    TTS Senior Member

    Agreed! You also have the World Sailing League coming in 2009, let's see how that works out. In the mean time get the behind the scenes politics, bickering and manipulating figured out.
  7. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 1,315
    Likes: 165, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 790
    Location: Australia

    catsketcher Senior Member

    Different styles of sailing

    I love multis for cruising but don't feel they make good racing boats for the average sailor. I have owned multis for 25 of my 40 years and have raced monos for 30. Monos really do make excellent racing boats and multihullers should be open minded enough to accept that others feel the same as me.

    Monos tack really well which means that you can get stuck into small shifts and get very close to your opposition. They are very manouvrable so that mark roundings and such are well contested. They are more robust in collisions so that you can touch another competitor and continue racing. (I did a port and starboard in a Tornado nationals and wiped out a bow.)

    The market has spoken and will continue to speak. Fast boats don't necessarily get people into sailing or make them watch. Monos are great boats for racing because they suit the style of racing that most people like doing - really close and tactical.

    The Americas Cup was amazingly close and exciting. There is no great need to change it as it seems vibrant and very much alive. Multis have their own scenes where they shine - the Star, Rhut du Rhum, and The Race. What would we think if mono lovers wanted to exclude multis from what they do best?

    Let monos shine when they shine. You have to let others have their place in the Sun if you want your own as well.


    Phil Thompson
  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    America's Cup

    I think there are serious problems with the cup in Alinghy's hands-apparently they are trying to make it harder for the challengers. Thats too bad but as long as the nationality rules remain as they are now this is the Corporate Cup-not the America's Cup I grew up with!
    However, since Alinghi has said they're going with a new boat I think the Cup should remain (become again) an example of the highest design technology in monohull keeboats. I think that the rules should allow movable ballast both above the water and below the water and ,of course, hydrofoils. A 60' Moth with small canting keel (that would allow the boat to be righted) coupled with on-deck movable water ballast and a wide (50') beam would be the mono I'd like to see. And,ah, it would be at least as fast as ORMA 60's......These boats would be visually stunning and allow the AC boats to represent the highest level of monohull technology.
  9. Rolf Nilsen
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 24
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: tack

    Rolf Nilsen Junior Member

    T-boning a modern AC yacht would probably be as fatal as your Tornado experience. "Touching" each others boat at mark roundings is quite common in Tornado racing, but a full on T-bone will damage the boat, just as a full on collision between two AC yachts will. Collisions are crew errors, no less.

    Multis are great boats for tactical and strategical racing. Monos tack faster, but they also need to calculate what they loose in a tack or gybe. A dinghy tacks really fast and you can accelerate out of the tack by roll-tacking, but you dont roll-tack AC boats.

    Tactics are just as important, or even more important, in multis, as the cost of tacking is so high, but strategy is what wins races in multis. Speed is what you look for both in monos and multis, but still there is often mere centimeters that separate one-designs like the Tornado at the finish line.

    For me the AC is about monos, and I would like them to stay with monos. But going for 90footers seems excessive. I am much more interested in seeing what comes out of the Coutts/Cayard incentive.
  10. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 112
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 28
    Location: New Hampshire

    TTS Senior Member

    To me the AC is definately about monos. I will not say that they are always state of the art monos. The 12's were a class that had been in existance for almost 5 decades when they were chosen as the AC boat to follow the J-boats. While quite a bit of new technology showed up on them, some of the technology had been around quite a while prior to showing up on AC boats, such as fiberglass hulls that the Kiwi "Plastic Magic" showed. Rod rigging had been around too for some time, it just took Ken King at Navtec to figure out the cold-heading of the rods combined with a turnbuckle fitting that worked well for the design. So it showed up in 1970 with Navtec doing the forestay on Intrepid. From there it was Mariner and a few others in the 1974 cup. At that time the NYYC had dictated that only "off-the-shelf" technology could be sourced from countries other than the nationality of the challenger. So by 1977, Navtec had made the rigging quote "off-the-shelf". We have come a long way from those days and quite a bit of R&D is going into the cup. Leading the way in this new group are companies such as Harken and North Sails. We will see a lot of that trickling down to the rest of the industry now that this cup is over. Harken will incorporate their innovations the fastest and others will follow. Sorry to loose the thread point, so back to it.

    I would like to see the boats be monos, shorter in length, not longer. I do like what the V-70's are doing and would like to see a similar thought process for the new cup boats, just designed for bouy racing. I think that unlike others, I would like to see both a longer course and at least one reaching leg. Also, long drag races are boring, what can be done to get back to tacking duels up the windward leg and jybeing downwind.

    As to the politics, again, I think nationality instead of corporate focus, would help to re-energize the cup. Alinghi needs to step back from the challenger series and focus upon putting some integrity back into the "defender series". That is all but lost these days. I think that the 1992 cup was the last true defender series. And what is with everyone saying "we are going to be racing today in big winds" when it was blowing 8-12. come on don't you miss Freemantle or Newport.
  11. Richard Atkin
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 579
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 219
    Location: Wellington, New Zealand

    Richard Atkin

    The Americas Cup is all about monos and should stay that way??? Naaah. The Americas Cup should be all about non-sailors staring at the TV and cheering for their football and other big money sports. Maybe the AC was once something far more prestigous, but lets appreciate it for what it needs to become. I say the sport needs more speed, thrills and spills (it will never lose the tactics and skill factor), and a lot less dodgy politics. It would also be nice if the winning boat wasnt always the one with the best kiwi sailors onboard. (I'm a kiwi) :)

    Like Rolf i am interested to see what happens with the World Sailing League development.
  12. joz
    Joined: Jul 2002
    Posts: 166
    Likes: 0, Points: 16, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    joz Senior Member

    what about the extreme 40 class cats? or the C or D Class cats ? as potential acc boats
  13. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 112
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 28
    Location: New Hampshire

    TTS Senior Member

    All of these classes first of all are small for the type of sailing and crew requirements that they are looking for. The C-Class is a 2 man crew, 25 feet in overall length and has its own championship which used to be the "Little America's Cup". The D class only had one or two boats ever built and that was the end of it. The VX40 is close to that boat in size and requires a crew of five to manage. What the class is looking for is a boat that will handle 18-20 crew members. Beyond that, I do not think that it will end up being sailed in a large multihull. If it were too, I think the boat proposed for the World Sailing League is probably the one to race on. We have a long way to go to get there. many other political issues are going to have to be addressed prior to this happening. At the same time, I do not want to see the GGYC being able to hijack the cup either.
  14. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,970
    Likes: 189, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Billionaires To Battle In Giant High Tech Cats

    ...courtesy of Scuttlebutt

    Imagine this:
    It is now late June 2008. The Spanish challenge was ruled
    invalid. Alinghi was forced to accept Oracle's challenge. Negotiations on a
    new protocol failed. Both teams have designed giant multihulls for the
    40-mile windward leeward and 39 mile triangle courses specified in the Deed
    of Trust. The first race will be in a few days, on the 4th of July....

    No, not a replay of 1988's lopsided "Mismatch" of Big Boat vs Cat, but high
    stakes racing in the fastest, all out high tech designs that money and big
    egos can buy.

    It's more likely than you think. And, while it would be hell
    for the other challengers and their sponsors, it sure would be entertaining
    for the media and public, not to mention the designers and sailors.

    Now posted on the Scuttlebutt Forum is a detailed analysis of the current
    legal situation, with links to the relevant documents, including the NY
    Court of Appeals ruling on the catamaran defense from the 27th AC. After
    reading the Forum post, the Curmudgeon notes, "This is as good a read as
    there has been on the subject, with all the details in one place. Very well
    written, incorporating facts, forecasts, and humor. Definitely worth a read
    by even the most indifferent Cup followers."

    -- Read on, with all comments welcome to be posted in the Forum:

    Attached Files:

  15. Meanz Beanz
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 2,280
    Likes: 33, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 585
    Location: Lower East ?

    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    Yep match racing is much better in two closely matched boats, I'm a multi fan but match racing is for mono's that can turn on a dime... its about tactics not speed.
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.