Amateur design insulting to pros?

[Sobell]

Don't get discouraged, some people think it's there job to stop someone from trying. It's frustrating. I just ignore comments that are discouraging.

Thanks, Scot. Good advice.

 

[Angélique]

-
The discouraging on this thread about building a Blue Moon was well substantiated and honest given advice, just like here.

These asked for advices were precious gifts to the askers, but of course they're not obliged to accept.

I would like to quote three times Warren Buffett on this matter, as I think all three quotes apply here . . . :idea:

1. Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy.
   
   And if you don’t have the first, the other two will kill you.
   

   You think about it; it’s true.
   

   If you hire somebody without integrity, you really want them to be dumb and lazy.​
   ​
   
   
2. Honesty is a very expensive gift, Don't expect it from cheap people.
   
   
   
3. Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.

Note on quote two; it's a smart one since it says ‘‘cheap people’’ and not ‘‘poor people’’, since you can have lots of money and still be cheap if you lack truthfulness, conversely you can have little money yet be wealthy in honor, if you tell the truth instead of what is liked to be heard . . :idea:

 

[Sobell]

Thank you, Angelique.

 

[Rurudyne]

Actually, "cheapness" in the ordinary, colloquial sense of the word has nothing to do with dishonesty. A lack of honor certainly will. I'm also dubious about those who go along to get along, being pleasers of men / brown noses isn't the best way to live.

But cheapness in the colloquial sense of the word is a great way to avoid bad habits like smoking, drinking or playing the lottery ... not because of any great moral scruples but because many bad habits are just plain expensive.

... adjusting for inflation comic books are presently double what I'd have paid when I finally called it quits in the early '90s (I confess, no one is cheap in all things, though if they keep hiking the prices it may well kick in!).

/well intended rant

 

[BayBoater]

Seems like a lot of people are initially attracted to the "big boat in a little package" look. Those types of designs aren't generally too well regarded and get dismissed as caricatures.

I've never built a sailboat, nor have I sailed at all (only kayaks and rowboats so far) and I won't regurgitate any more heresay.

A rational approach dictates starting with defining the requirements and selecting a design based on that. Another approach is to build what you love the look of, and then either adjust your expectations, or if you cannot do that, build or buy another boat.

I have sled dogs and in the beginning my main criterion for selecting dogs was that their ears stand up. A few years later got involved in racing and figured out that the most successful sprint racers all have floppy-eared dogs (with much more pointer than husky in them). Fast forward 15 years and my huskies are gone now. My new dogs all have floppy ears; I love them dearly and I go much faster.

With boats my tastes have also changed a bit already since I started investigating rowboat designs about 2 years ago when I was recuperating from a broken ankle. At first I was very attracted to fast rowboats, which are generally narrow. I built my first prototype 1 1/2 years ago out of plywood and coroplast signboard and found it too narrow to use with confidence in the size of waves routinely encountered in my area in the summer. So I started building a wider boat. If it is still not big enough, I will build another. I hope I will get to "big enough" before I lose cartoppability.

I like the experimental and iterative approach but as the boats get bigger and more investment is required, the ability for serial building declines.

On another forum my design ideas got heavily slammed and yet I persisted and I'm finding the designing just as much fun as the building. I think the smaller the boat the greater the likelihood of coming up with something successful as an amateur. I don't think I'd try something with a cabin unless I had successfully designed and built a similar sized boat without one.

Good thing you have a while to recuperate from the knee surgery (I hope it is successful). There will be plenty of time to look around on the internet at 10,000 pictures of sailboats. This helped me to learn a lot and keep the dream alive.

If you can, go to wooden boat shows and festivals, talk to people, and if at all possible, have someone take you out on a boat similar to what you envision. I believe that practical experience is the best way to learn about boats, and I just wish I lived in an area where could try out more types without driving hundreds of miles.

 

[Sobell]

Thank you, Bay Boater. Excellent advice.

 

[hoytedow]

The boat I built has no cabin but it has a bimini top. We are planning to camp on the boat and I am working out using the bimini as a support for a full tent with ample screening(We also live in Florida) over the seating area, which is designed to sleep 2. But it is a power boat. On a sailboat you can use a tarp as an awning over the boom and screen the ends with mosquito netting.

This way you can save a lot of weight and take it or leave it on shore.

 

[tom28571]

The look you don't like is what I do like -- the big cabin and smallish sails and the sort of rakish backslant to the whole profile.

There are indeed lots of little cruisers, dozens, maybe hundreds, that look almost exactly alike (and there are others that are awful). But Blue Moon is apparently unique as I haven't seen anything like it. And while I'm not at all crazy about the outmoded building method, I love the vintage look.

I guess I'll keep looking, and/or learn how to redesign this boat for modern construction methods.

I generally stay out of threads like this because they to often get contentious about discouragement etc. Try to remember that those here who answer you are taking time from their other activities to offer advice and any who are really trying to discourage novices get weeded out by others who don't tolerate that well. What may be called discouragement is more likely educational advice that should be taken seriously by the novice to their benefit.

After looking at your wishes in relation to aesthetics which is usually the main driver for most designs anyway, I would suggest that you look at Sam Devlin's Winter Wren which looks like a close relative, maybe even sister to your wants. The construction and material are modern and the design is by someone respected in the field.

https://www.devlinboat.com/2015/12/winter-wren-ii/

A successful outcome is much more likely when starting from a good foundation.

 

[Scot McPherson]

Try to remember that those here who answer you are taking time from their other activities to offer advice and any who are really trying to discourage novices get weeded out by others who don't tolerate that well.

Hey Tom,
I know this is exactly why you stay out of it, but anyone who is here is here because they enjoy it. No one is here out of duty. If someone is giving advice, it's because they like to give advice whether it's good, bad, discouragement or encouragement, the person who is posting it is doing it for themselves, whether it is helpful or trolling or whatever. No one is giving time out of their day to help anyone here, they are already here satisfying their own needs and wants.

I don't mean that derogatorily either, that's not an insult by any means...but it is fact that if you are here, it's because you want to be here, not because anyone made you be here.

 

[tom28571]

Hey Tom,
I know this is exactly why you stay out of it, but anyone who is here is here because they enjoy it. No one is here out of duty. If someone is giving advice, it's because they like to give advice whether it's good, bad, discouragement or encouragement, the person who is posting it is doing it for themselves, whether it is helpful or trolling or whatever. No one is giving time out of their day to help anyone here, they are already here satisfying their own needs and wants.

I don't mean that derogatorily either, that's not an insult by any means...but it is fact that if you are here, it's because you want to be here, not because anyone made you be here.

I'm sure that I don't know what the motives are behind that post but I'm fairly certain that I don't want or need any.

 

[Scot McPherson]

I'm sure that I don't know what the motives are behind that post but I'm fairly certain that I don't want or need any.

You made it sound like someone had to stop what they were doing to be here and help, and that time out of their day should be praised....that's not at all true...everyone is here because they want to be here. That's all I mean.

 

[PAR]

Nancy's China is also another of Sam's to consider.

 

[tom28571]

You made it sound like someone had to stop what they were doing to be here and help, and that time out of their day should be praised....that's not at all true...everyone is here because they want to be here. That's all I mean.

One thing that is almost always missing on this forum is any personal acrimony between those who post here. A little back and forth after people become familiar with other's ideas and inclinations perhaps but you have not been here long enough for any of that and know little to nothing about others expertise or experience. What I am saying is that you do not speak for me as I can do that myself quite well thank you. Plus, I think you are casting a large net that does not explain why everyone is here. Human incentives are much more complicated than that.

Peace, I hope.

Paul, I have seen both of these boats and think that Nancy's China is nice but Winter Wren is a more robust and capable little cruiser. I once had an opportunity to buy a Wren for a very good price and, while I certainly don't have need for another boat, I am kind of sorry I did not dump the cash box and buy it.

 

[Scot McPherson]

Tom,
Absolutely...I appreciate everyone being here

I am not discounting ANYONE's experience whatsoever...I have no intentions of implying that. I do however take exception to when fealty it is expected from people with less experience working with boats, and that the fealty is due because some grand mugwump has deigned to give their two cents. (Edit: I am not pointing fingers here, I am talking about the new user's perception, not about the person giving the advice.)

I also am not able to pinpoint everyone's incentive, but there is no one single person who is on this board for any other reason than because they want to be here. No one is compelled by an outside agency to participate here.

I think everyone should design their own boat, and I also believe that they should hire, barter, trade some consultation time from a knowledgeable designer who's boats have been splashed and proven in the style and type of boat in question. I wouldn't want racing boat designer giving me advice on my George Buehler design mods, any more than I would want George Buehler giving me advice on how to make my boat design faster.

I am a big fan of long and narrow and good seakeeping, but not everyone is...some people are shoal drafters...I am not, that's what my dinghies are for.

anyway...yes peace for sure...none of what I am saying is derogatory in anyway shape form or manner. I just like to be sure that those who feel like they are being discouraged should not give up. It's one thing to be gently guided in a direction with an opinion, it's another to be told your idea is horrible to the extent that the boat builder eventually does give up either on their boat, or on this forum...

 

[Sobell]

To recent commenters... I continue to look at, or rather for, alternatives to Blue Moon. I have looked at all the designs suggested here and elsewhere. I've searched Google and YouTube. So far I haven't found anything I like as well.

At YouTube I found something I sort of liked, though I wasn't impressed with the quality of the building. Somebody apparently designed and built a big, squared-off cabin on an Argie 15. The cabin is enormous, even for my taste, though it doesn't look bad under stail. As far as I can determine, there are no plans/drawings for building this cabin. It looks like the builder just made it up.

https://youtu.be/i629nvqYzzA

I've also been drawing Blue Moon's stations or sections, whatever they're called, very imprecisely, but it does give me an idea what the boat will look like bow and stern....

People have mentioned what the boat would be used for. Overnighting and weekending in the sheltered waters of the northern Gulf Coast. I live in extreme West Florida, where we have three bays, sound, ICW. It would be a bonus to have a small trailerable boat to take as far east as Appalachee Bay and the Big Bend area, and as far west as Lake Ponchartrain... Lots of magnificent shoreline the whole way....