Landshark

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by timotb, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. timotb
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    timotb Junior Member

    It has been a dream of mine since the early 2000's to build a three wheeled amphibious enclosed vehicle very much like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD0o1tVy-ZM

    Aptera, Venture, Carver, Corbin Sparrow are just a few of the failed attempts at producing such a vehicle, albeit none are amphibious. The reasons for failure in my opinion are too high initial investment/startup complicated with excessive governmental regulation and legal liability for too small of a niche market.

    Does this mean specialty niche vehicles will never be a reality? Maybe. Unless we do something radically different.

    I propose building the above youtube example of the Landshark in the following manor:

    1. OPEN SOURCE basis where anyone can contribute to the design.
    2. Use EXISTING MANUFACTURED PARTS, when able, similar to what American Motor’s did in the 1970s.
    3. Build a THREE WHEELED vehicle bypassing US DOT regulations for cars allowing it to be licensed on the road as a motorcycle.
    4. Build it as a KIT from parts reducing manufacturing costs and limiting liability as the kit builder actually becomes the manufacturer.
    5. The AMPHIBIOUS nature of the vehicle add complexity, but also adds a useful utility.

    Looking for help on the CAD design end. Anyone interested?
     
  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Motorcycles are regulated by the DOT the same as cars and trucks, you can't bypass that if you want it to be road legal.
     
  3. timotb
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    timotb Junior Member

    ...but the rules are considerably less restrictive for vehicles with less than 4 wheels according to USDOT. Have you noticed that seat belts are not required on motorcycles?

    I misspoke suggesting there are no DOT rules for motorcycles. Turn signals are still required.
     
  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Motorcycles require lights that turn on whenever the engine is running, which is not required on four wheeled vehicles. My new motorcycle has a catalytic converter to comply with emissions.
     
  5. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    there is a reason there is not a vehicle like that available, there is no market for them. build one for yourself and perhaps a few for others, and than your costs will be so high, and the demand so low, you are out of business. Many have built amphibian cars, and roadable aircraft, none have survived. there is just no practical utility for them other than for recreation. Almost everyone that works owns a car, only a few own a boat larger than a canoe, and almost none have to own a boat, but choose to for sport or recreation. Make a very costly amphibious road vehicle, not many will buy it.

    I have considered just a land vehicle built super light, run on propane (clean and cheap, $1.80/gal), three wheeled two seater that would get perhaps 80 to 100 mpg. My hope would be that it is a useful, comfortable and safe commuter. The three wheels would be to avoid the heavy regulations for 4 wheeled vehicles, but I am afraid the market for it would be small. The best selling vehicles have been larger fuel consumers, large sedans (camary, accord) or SUV. I drive an old toyota 4wd Tercel, great fuel economy and reasonably roomy, when I asked toytoa officials at cars shows why does no one offer economical lightweight 4x4/AWD cars in the US, they said the larger they make the cars the more they sell. So there is just not enough of a market other than a few specialty vehciles. even with the price of fuel where it is at now, super economy cars do not sell well.

    I might build one for myself just for fun, but I could not see ever producing them to sell in any large numbers. I have lots of experience as an automotive engineer, and I have also worked in areospace and have built a lot of small boats. I know I can design something that meets your specification that would be viable, but trying to make money by selling production versions I think is unlikely to ever be profitable.

    Making alternative vehicles is basically a hobby. Even if you had something that people would want to buy, the regulations would put you out of business. Another engineer friend and I had discussed the viability of making a minivan sized vehicle 6-8 passenger, that gets 80 to 100 mpg. Airbags, heavy bumpers, safety glass, and a million of other stupid federal regulations would make that impossible. The manufactures mandate equipment rather than safety goals, even when the equipment is as likely to kill or cause injury (like airbags, a very bad idea). If the goal was really to make the passenger safe, they would not require equipment like airbags, but rather mandate accident survivability and allow the manufacturer to achieve that goal. One company holds the patent for the airbag, and they make big contributions to campaign funds, so that is never going to happen.

    So if you ever sell more than a few, you will be regulated out of profitability. Just think, even the big car companies can not stay profitable for more than a few years in a row. Almost none can show five consecutive years of profitability.

    Lets design a one off and built one for each of us, and be done with it.
     
  6. timotb
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    timotb Junior Member

    Exactly Petros, too high initial investment/startup complicated with excessive governmental regulation and legal liability for too small of a niche market.

    Was hoping selling parts and letting the buyer assemble the vehicle would beat the liability side since he would in fact be the builder. By making the project open source, everybody would own the community contributed design.

    I envisioned the user of such an amphibious vehicle to be:

    1. a yachter who wants ship to shore transportation in one step
    2. Law enforcement
    3. an islander who commutes from island to island or island to shore
    4. someone who wants an enclosed motorcycle to avoid adverse weather conditions.
    5. recreational user

    Of course I want one for myself, but don't plan to spend millions in R&D and clay mockups. Too bad I'm not qualified to construct a CAD design. Next, the parts could be assembled from existing stock or constructed in a machine shop/fabrication shop.

    Where can we buy propane for $1.80 a gallon?
     
  7. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Suzuki builds great cars-but they have ditched the US market.

    Would modifying a Can Am Spyder make sense? Good used ones are $10k,ones in accidents are $4-5k.
    Starting with a designed base that you know works...

    I do like the idea for Island living.
     
  8. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    here is PWC/motorcycle combo thread.

    One design I'm considering would be basically just adding two rear wheels on MC style suspension on either side of water jet of large PWC, retractable, with single front as shown on the single track in my gallery.

    So it would be a leaning 3 wheeler. Maybe with leg operated levers to control the lean and have it sprung to stay upright at rest.

    It would be designed for ship to shore for large yacht, a three seater able to carry a chauffer and at least two passengers, then cruise the streets and hwys like an overloaded touring bike(in otherwords, just fine).

    Able to go 40mph from 20 miles offshore to 100 miles inland and back, including narrow streets, creeks.


    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/how-about-combo-pwc-motorcycle-39668.html


    But with new tech and CAD, etc, I do feel SOMEONE will soon come up with a 'breakthrough' amphib.
     
  9. timotb
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    timotb Junior Member

  10. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The main problem is how to comply with regulations rather than purely technical. It has to comply with marine regulations in the water, and road regulations on land. Unlike boats, you can't register a home built vehicle without extensive inspections. However, in many states you can modify a motorcycle an still be legal. The question is whether the USCG will allow it in the water. For example, a greasy chain is in violation of the Clean Water Act.
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Even if a design was found and approved , how would you get it out of the water and onto the road ??

    Obviously a launching ramp if available ..if no ramp is nearby ?
     
  12. timotb
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    timotb Junior Member

    Never said it would be easy, without difficulty or without issues. Ramps are common and the best way to transition land and sea.
     

  13. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    you forgot another market for such a vehicle, small but possibly profitable: search and rescue. And possibly military, special forces or search and rescue (downed pilots in swampy areas), or specialized patrol. There would be more profit there, but a very limited market size.

    I like the idea of using off the shelf parts. you would just provide plans and instructions, and the customer would order all the parts themselves and assemble it (or possibly hire a shop to build it for him). No inventory and no warehouse or factory to operate. Not a lot profit selling plans for say $100-200 since your total market would be small. there are even fewer people willing to build their own recreation craft, even at large cost savings. Perhaps you could partner with various shops around the country to build them for a customer, and you make a commission or referral fee.
     
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