AIT Around In Ten

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Manie B, Feb 7, 2014.

  1. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 117, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Angel thanks for your research :) good stuff

    The boat seems to be of good design and build and if he built it out there it would have been very expensive and time consuming because "boat" materials are hard to find in remote places. It is looking more and more like a half baked idea by a silly guy.

    Anyway Angel thanks for your posts its super cool for me to have a person on the other side of the world that can do the "French" thing :D :D :D

    Frank - nice hull.

    GTO - very good points.

    Dries - yes, the mast does slide in the sleeve I'll post more on the other thread.
     
  2. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 2,092
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    It looks way too narrow and a bit too low sided.

    I don't see how you're ever going to get yourself and all your provisions inside.

    The displacement looks too low as well. It looks like less than a thousand pounds. You need nearly two thousand.

    You can go lighter only if you're able to go considerably faster. Most of the weight has to be taken out of the hull itself, as there is a rock bottom minimum you can go with provisions.

    There was on proposed design on the Around-In-Ten web site which had an all carbon fiber hull, a fin keel, and an under 1,000 lb all up displacement.

    Only dried foods were to be brought on board and all the drinking water was to be provided by a hand powered water maker. The voyage was to be done in hops of less than 2,000 nm each.

    The idea did seem somewhat plausible, but I just imagined struggling with the water maker in 100 deg. heat and 90% humidity.

    The rig was large and fragile looking, too.
     
  3. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 980
    Likes: 14, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 185
    Location: usa

    frank smith Senior Member

    sharpii2 , you are pretty much wrong on all of your assumptions about hull I presented. I could post the specs but wont, as it should be easy enough for someone in the know to figure out. I will say that lateral area is to small, and I would think about increasing reserve buoyancy of the bow sections too overcome the inherent pitching in a hull designed to these limits. I was also thinking about the amount of yaw in this short hull, l think the distribution of displacement is not to bad on that account Take it as an Idea of what one might do, not the perfect solution, as there is no perfect solution. My intention here was to provide
    some comfort for the long hall. My thinking is that the sailor should be stressed as little as possible in the endeavor, and maintain max sail for as long as possible without being over worked. Of course this is just a hull in need of a rig and topside design, Have fun.
     
  4. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 117, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Frank I basically started with a similar model/drawing as yours,
    Then I made it hard chine and developable
    and then I modelled it into an "ark"

    I then modelled the hull around "the man" and his "cargo"
    hence the comfortable bed and the comfortable seats
    under the bed is a complete flat section in the hull for the 4x 105a batteries and 200 litres of water in 10 litre bottles and next to the bunk are the lockers for food storage.
    This means my ballast is low down in the hull and my heavy cargo/food as well. Which effectively means my "margarine tub" principle is acceptable.

    NOW this is where it got "interesting" after spending DAYS on the computer I was able to adjust my model that I got the resistance values down to 330 watts at 5 knots on a 1000 kgs displacement and a wetted area of 4.60 sqm. excluding keels. Obviously I was extremely pleased with these calculations because similar calculations on my present boat appeared to be as good, reliable and tested. This means that my ark moves easily thru the water at low speeds.
    My underwater hull is wider at the bow than stern, on deck its the opposite.
    When you sit for hours on end playing around with a hull, it is remarkable what you learn. And obviously because my 5m Fargo was built more or less the same I picked up a couple of tricks along the way.

    Anyway - enjoy :) :) :)
     
  5. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 980
    Likes: 14, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 185
    Location: usa

    frank smith Senior Member

    Manie B, Your design look to have a similar mid ship section to mine, basically a cat boat section. I had worked up some multi chine ideas , but find that a chine approximation of a round hull always requires greater length. A strip blanked hull of this size would not be any more work than a ply hull, and maybe cost less. If it were foam core it might weigh less, but not so much. I cant see why one would restrict designs to ply construction, with all the limitation the AIT already imposes. Although, a box keel configuration similar to Bolger's Hasler or APRIL FOOL , don't look to bad. I think the biggest problem people have in designing for the AIT, is that they allow preconceived notions to drive the process. I am glad you have revived the AIT idea.
    With an open mind it might go somewhere. Across an ocean, is another question.
     
  6. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 2,092
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Frank.

    I must say I take exception to this remark. I find it quite insulting.

    It is clear that the section drawing is in no way in the same proportion as the other drawings, which appear to be in perspective. Not all of us are aces in spacial reasoning. Such is a major weakness of mine. From what I saw in your drawings, the boat looks to be 4 ft wide at best. It might be 4ft minus or even 3 ft plus. Hard for me to tell.

    Since you refuse to give any specs at all, even just plain Beam (we can safely assume it's 10 ft long) how is anyone "in the know" supposed to figure this out?

    A round bottom hull is, IMHO, a great design solution. I didn't go that route mainly because I wanted to design something I thought I might be able to build myself.

    A chine hull offers other advantages as well.

    Chief among them are straight sections, if it is cylindrically developed.

    This would make the myriad of storage compartments that much easier to construct. The boat would build faster as a result. And double chines have only slightly more whetted area than a real rounded bottom.

    I read Serge Testa's book, 500 DAYS.

    His 12 ft boat seems to have had a great deal of IOR influence, as it was somewhat shallow bodied and had a deep short fin keel. It was only hard chine because it had to be built out of aluminum (Serge is a welder, highly experienced in this material).

    The wide deck appears to have been a problem. He mentions, on many occasions, water getting below from above.

    For this reason, I think an AIT boat should be almost comically high sided for its Length and Beam. The pram hull form seems to suite these proportions well, as well as provide gentle bends for a short, stubby hull.

    I share with you the idea that it should have a long keel.

    The long keel may limit or even eliminate the need for self steering gear such as wind vanes or electric auto pilots. Any gear that can safely be left ashore is that much less complexity to bother with, and more displacement left over for stores.
     
  7. rayman
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 132
    Likes: 6, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: brisbane

    rayman Senior Member

    Manie, here is the venerable Horie Kenichi's new little "Mermaid 4" I think he might know a thing or two about long distance endurance sailing.It appears to me to have similarities in the bulb keel to John W's "Gimli" and the delta sail rig of the english mans
    Micro 10"
    and for Mr. PDW. Ashley Coulson and the "G'day 88" also known as "Iona whirlpool" The smallset boat to have doubled the Tasman sea.When off the NZ North cape he set off his E pirb because he had had enough, and was picked up by a tanker that was in the region.Three months later G'day 88 was dragged off a beach on the far north coast and taken to Auckland.It was given back to him (no salvage charges) and he sailed back to Aus. landing at Coffs harbour. I have no idea what has happened to this boat but he went to jail for 3 life times for multiple murders.

    now, back to:) little cruisers.:cool:
     

    Attached Files:

  8. rayman
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 132
    Likes: 6, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: brisbane

    rayman Senior Member

    Serge Testa's biggest complaint about water leaks from above is from the fact that the whole roof and aft wall of the cabin hinged from the deck, so opening the cabin up and providing a seat with backrest, it lay back against the mounting rail for the steering. To me this appears to be a good idea but would require a hefty system to latch shut to avoid leaks.
    Sven's boat looks to be fairly large when you see him inside it but you must remember that he is a very slight little fellow.
     
  9. rayman
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 132
    Likes: 6, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: brisbane

    rayman Senior Member

    here are a couple pics of
    Acrohc Australis showing how the top of the cabin opens up and out.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. rayman
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 132
    Likes: 6, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: brisbane

    rayman Senior Member

    If I was going for one of these micro boats I would just shave the two feet off the bows of this one. Make it a pram bow.
     
  11. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,041
    Likes: 117, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1818
    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  12. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 980
    Likes: 14, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 185
    Location: usa

    frank smith Senior Member

    sharpii2, here are the lines. I think you will see the it is neither narrow nor shallow. Disp. here is 1800lp. I still dont see ply as any easier than strip plank in this case, and it wont be cheaper. it also forces you into sticking displacement where you dont want it. This boat could be built over three molds. Leave them in if you want, or bulid an egg crate mold and your interior is done. Most of the examples of boat built for the AIT have been poorly thought out slapped together ply monstrosities. Mostly because people get it stuck in there minds that somehow it simplifies and lowers the cost of the deal. This just aint true.

    10 ait_Linesplan.jpg
     
  13. rayman
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 132
    Likes: 6, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 59
    Location: brisbane

    rayman Senior Member

    Frank, thats a nice set of lines, should be reasonably easy and fast to build cold molded in veneers.What would the mid girth length be??
     
  14. frank smith
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 980
    Likes: 14, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 185
    Location: usa

    frank smith Senior Member

    Rayman, It about 5'3". In looking at them again I think some more changes are in order.
    The keel is really dependent on the rig choice. So as I have said it is only the direction in which I would go. Just the beginning of the design spiral. If it was done in foam core the displacement could be reduced. I think at this point some real number crunching has to be done. the figures bandied about are for the most part based on Gerry Spiess, Yankee Girl. Based on his design, and the way he supplied it, i think the weight could be reduced. The idea of The AIT race is interesting.
    This is what I was thinking at the time that the race was happening. Now I would start with a fresh sheet of paper, and go from there. As many said at the time an increase to 16' you could get much more of a boat. I like Dix's Piepowder.
     

  15. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 2,092
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Thanks, Frank.

    Now I see.

    I'm an old school ortho projection guy.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. sdowney717
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,064
  2. rwatson
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    1,495
  3. Westfield 11
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,119
  4. sdowney717
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,582
  5. yacht07
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    2,150
  6. watchkeeper
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    2,071
  7. Tiny Turnip
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    1,115
  8. brian eiland
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,069
  9. rwatson
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,535
  10. digger73
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,284
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.