AIT Around In Ten

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Manie B, Feb 7, 2014.

  1. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 3,176
    Likes: 198, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2054
    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    The info I posted on entry regs was for Manie or anyone else interested. Nothing to do with Happy 2.

    But H2 was impounded under the same regulations you find in every country today. If your vessel stays without any extension of the time the initial visa allowed you have to either leave or pay duty. How is that unfair ?
    He was given ample warning and could have gone to PNG or New Cal easily enough and come back for another 6 months. People were given a lot more grace period then when they were in breach of law than they are today.

    He was also broke, the craft required repairs and he had achieved his aim of crossing the Pacific with the prevailing weather. It was his choice. I don't think he wanted to do anymore with the boat anyway, couldn't afford to ship it home and wasn't going to try and sail it back to Canada.
     
  2. Westel
    Joined: May 2014
    Posts: 109
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Belgium

    Westel Senior Member

    OK about the entry regs, I thought you meant like the guy should have checked the internet before entering Australia when the internet wasn't born yet, my mistake.

    How could he have gone "easely enough" to PNG or New Cal and come back when his boat needed repairs and the guy was broke, is this Australian Customs logic ? ;)

    He wanted to sail around the world and when he lost his first boat, he builded another one to continiue his dream, hardly a guy who gives up easely I would say.
    Having said this, the story of what really happened isn't on the internet or written down in a book as far as I know so, we both are guessing and assuming me thinks.
    Wether or not Happy II "changed owners" on "fair" grounds, it's a sad story in which only the name of the skipper is known, those responsable for the final descision will remain anonymous forever or hidden behind a piece of paper called "The Law".......
     
  3. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 3,176
    Likes: 198, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2054
    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    West
    I was talking to the museum staff where H2 resides and had a good look at the boat after they got it.
    If you ever get to Brisbane Serge Teslas (edit: Testa not Tesla) little boat is in the other museum.


    Manie
    With the current regs it's much stricter than in H2's day. Particularly the pre-arrival reporting requirement must be adhered to.

    http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Ente/Avia/Maritime/Let-us-know-youre-coming

    There's no problem with your boat size. They are all considered small international craft.
     
  4. Westel
    Joined: May 2014
    Posts: 109
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Belgium

    Westel Senior Member


    Although my brothers youngest daughter is serving in the Australian Army, the chances me ever vsiting Australia (Brisbane) are small to none, would be interesting to see Happy II and Testa's boat though.:D:
     
  5. Bod
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 23
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Leicester

    Bod Junior Member

    Rig ideas

    hi well this thread seems to have gone quiet since Yrvinds exit so i thought i would throw in my tuppence worth... i have been quietly watching the around in ten idea come and go and still no one seems to have even made an attempt yet. my thoughts are that the AIT is possible to achieve, there are no reasons that can not be overcome with proper design and planning except maybe the requirement for a touch of madness!

    i have dreamed of attempting the AIT for years, not just to break the record but mainly because i fancied experiencing it and am obsessed with small boat design. my personal opinion is that the boat must be built for the worst that cape horn can throw at it, as in many capsizes and pitchpoles, but where i differ from previous designs is that the boat should be built to enjoy rough seas not just endure them, like you would embrace the fear and excitement of a roller coaster. so i am thinking of building a cockpit seat where you can be strapped in under shelter and have the helm and all the controls close by with front seat view of 50 footers!

    i constantly wonder about the best rig for the AIT and dont think i know of one that ideally fits. so, my own design (see my rough sketch) is to do away with a mast and shrouds and build a stainless frame to house the rigging including 2 furling sails. My question is has anyone seen this kind of rig before and what would be the pros and cons??

    thanks
     

    Attached Files:

    • AIT.jpg
      AIT.jpg
      File size:
      82.4 KB
      Views:
      145
  6. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,884
    Likes: 93, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Several problems with your ideas.

    1.) No design is going to enjoy fifty footers, particularly if they are breaking. The best type of vessel for these conditions is a submarine.

    2.) the sail rig you show is way too small for the likely displacement of the Hull, probably one and a half to three thousand pounds.

    3.) the rig you drew is very structurally inefficient, meaning there is a lot of structure and weight per given amount of Sail Area (SA).

    4.) your Hull design seems to have nowhere near the displacement it's going to need for 40 to 60 day voyages.

    A fellow who calls himself "Manie" has built himself what I now call a "Blue-Water-Ten", which is what I think the proper name for this type of vessel should be, and may be giving it sea trials as I write.

    Though your ideas may be a bit off, I do think you have at least an intuitive grasp of the design issues of such a vessel. You get the fact that it is likely get get tossed around a bit, if not severely, and has to be strong enough to take it (this includes the rig too, which you also seem to get).

    Where I think you have failed is that you don't seem to realize such a vessel must be at least usable in a wide variety of conditions, not just screaming gales. For this it needs an rig of adequate SA. It should have somewhere near 100 sf (9.3 sm) or more.

    The boat should have a long, deep keel for good course keeping and good roll dampening, not to mention adequate ultimate stability.

    Attached below is a sketch of my idea of what a BW10 could look like. It is designed for short and moderate hops of two to four thousand Nautical Miles.

    Its mast is intended to be of ridiculously large sections for the boat's size, so it could conceivably withstand a series of pitch-poles. Each of the three stays is to be at least 1/4 (6mm) stainless steel.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Bod
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 23
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Leicester

    Bod Junior Member

    Hi sharpii,
    I like your designs. I would opt for very similar keel and rudder. Please don't see my sketch as a design, it was just to represent rig frame as a concept. I like the idea of a gaff rig such as yours but this is not going to withstand multiple capsizes. Hence the idea of a frame. I know this will add weight but it has to remain after a tumble. I'm not interested in speed and aim to build a craft that can stay at sea for 18 months or even longer if able to catch fish and collect rainwater, desalinate seawater.

    I do want a craft that can create the comfort to 'enjoy' big seas. Strapped in seat with 360° vision and padded coffin bunk, however I'm not naive enough to imagine that weeks of the southern ocean wont be gruelling.

    I have enjoyed watching and learning from manies boat build and am looking forward to more reports. I'm planning to build my craft and then doing many sea trials before an AIT attempt after I'm happy I have the ideal design. I appreciate you comments sharpii about sail area being small, but I plan to add a spinnaker and kite for prevaling winds and trades. But I'm wondering if the frame versus mast idea might be the one for the AIT?
     
  8. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,788
    Likes: 157, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    I may have a very interesting rig for you to consider, but I have to sort thru some info just sent to me the other day. I'm going to be adding it to this Wishbone subject thread, ...
    ....and in case I forget to place a link to this particular posting on this tread, please remind me.
     
  9. Bod
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 23
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Leicester

    Bod Junior Member

    Thanks Brian. I had a browse through your post and ended up taking a few tangents, lots of reading to do!! I'm eagerly waiting your new rig concept :)
     
  10. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,788
    Likes: 157, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

  11. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 3,005
    Likes: 318, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    -
    Right ! - :) - - Thanks Brian [​IMG]
     
  12. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,884
    Likes: 93, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Maybe, but probably not.

    This is because due to the weight of an adequately strong cage, the SA will be so small that the whole thing will be seen as a nuisance, and probably cut away upon reaching the first port, to make room for a proper rig.

    Your criticism of my rig design is certainly valid.

    But in the most likely pitch-pole conditions the sails would all be furled, with the Boom and Gaff lashed firmly to a sturdy crutch.

    The Hull itself is designed to run downwind with all sails furled. The immersed bit of transom helps keep it cocked downwind, and the pram like plan is intended to help prevent pitch-poling, as well as to create adequate space below. Notice that the Stern is as high as the Bow.

    I encourage you to draw scaled sketches of your Hull and Cage design, so you can see for yourself where the problems are. You should also draw your more moderate weather sailing rig, and show how it is to work in tropical to near freezing conditions.
     
  13. Bod
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 23
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Leicester

    Bod Junior Member

    Concept frame rig

    heres my outline for a steel frame rig for the around in ten challenge. Thanks to Sharpii for encouraging me!

    i see the main obstacle in the AIT as pitchpoles in the southern ocean of which we can expect many in a ten foot boat! so stregth of rig outweighs all other factors. all the present rigs i see are weak and will dismast so are defunct ideas in my opinion so im suggesting making a steel frame instead of a mast and shrouds. i prefer steel to aluminium as its less brittle and much stronger.

    now im looking at the cons rather than the pros at this stage to decide whether i should continue down this path or just bin it off...

    1/ the main con being weight. the frame is gonna weigh more to gain desired strength. what worries me most is center of gravity being raised. to counter this more keel ballast will be required and also reduction in height which i like the idea of but it will reduce speed and sail area.

    2/ reduced sail area. i see this as necessary compromise to gain strength. i propose use of kite to counter this, and also note that the frame will allow distance between sails at the head giving more efficient sail area to further counter the loss.

    3/ reduced speed. due to heavier boat with less sail area speed will be reduced. happy compromise in my view as i prefer to be at sea than stuck on land and im confident i can carry enough oats for 18 months :D:D:D

    please excuse my crap diagrams they are just to convey the ideas

    please i know there are many AIT enthusiasts out there, any comments, ideas or mild insults welcome...
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 3,005
    Likes: 318, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1632
    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Hi Bod,

    The curved lines of the frame make the structure heavy and weak, so the boat will be top heavy, and so you'll have a low stability as result.

    I'll think something like that better could be done by using an A-frame mast, with fore and aft stays, the stays could be attached to fore and aft sprits if necessary, the sprits could have water stays.

    Good luck !
     

  15. Bod
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 23
    Likes: 0, Points: 1, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Leicester

    Bod Junior Member

    Hi Angelique you have a very valid point. im keen on the idea of separating the heads of the 2 sails but there is weakness in the frame at the top in that case, and yes maybe all frame/ shrouds meeting at one point would be the strongest method.

    An a frame and supports may be the strongest rig.

    could offer any insight into why shrouds instead of frame? less weight? other reasons?

    thanks
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.