Aftmast rigs???

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by jdardozzi, May 28, 2002.

  1. markstrimaran
    Joined: Dec 2014
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    markstrimaran Senior Member

    20 minute trailer sailer

    It's has been 17 months, since I did any sailing, had surgery last year, so I never stepped the mast. I am surprised the aft mast is not equipped on a few trailer sailors, as I can launch, after 20 minutes of rigging. It took me 30 minutes to derig, in the dark. Single handed. It would be easy to do it in 10 minutes, with two.

    The wind was 20 mph, the helm is super easy to balance out with the swing keel, moved forward, from last season.
    Tacking through the irons, is smooth and steady.
     

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  2. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member


    There is another rather long subject thread on that forum that talks about an owners efforts to newly build an unfinished Prout catamaran



    He has made some interesting changes to the vessel, and some conservative changes to the rig he is installing. Lets hope he gives us an update when he gets it out sailing.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Attaching shrouds and stays to the mast column.

    I've spoken of this before,...here in a page of discussions
    Aftmast rigs??? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/aftmast-rigs.623/page-66

    And here in my rigging force analysis... Aftmast rigs??? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/aftmast-rigs.623/page-23#post414479
    Just this past weekend I had the occasion to view a beautiful schooner that had been designed by Alden for General George Patton. It was dockside here in Lunenburg NS, and was now named 'When & If'.

    Another thing I found interesting on this vessel was the method utilized to attach the shrouds and intermediates to the mast column. Instead of poking holes in the mast tube, they warped the rigging around the mast column and kept that rigging from sliding down the tube by attaching 'cheek blocks' to the mast.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It harkens back to older days when a lot of square-riggers had their multiple rope/wire shrouds wrapped around their mast columns at their upper locations.

    I've made the same suggestion for attaching rigging to modern mast, particularly carbon tubes where I hate to see holes poked in and those odd-ball kinked swaged fittings used.

    For a few photos of the whole vessel go to their website, and here on the forum I posted a few....
    General Patton's Sailboat https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/general-pattons-sailboat.59021/
     
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  4. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    This is the ancient loop-and-hound system, which dates back to the time of the pharaohs. I've used it myself on the sailing raft I built when I was 17. I used nails driven into the mast at approx 45 deg. angles as my hounds. It worked fine except the clothes line I used was not up to the loads. I replaced them with poly line and those troubles were over.

    This system can work quite well, but there is one major issue to keep in mind.

    This is that the downward component of the load is going to be much greater than the sideways one. For this reason, your loop is going to try to wedge itself under the hound. Simply gluing it to the mast might not do, because the top of the glue joint might suffer a tremendous tension load, as well as shear load. The more acute the stay angle is, the more true this statement is.

    This is even more true if very thin but strong line is used.

    In this case, thicker line might be better, as it will distribute the load on the top of the hound. Thinner, lower stretch line could then be connected to the loop, for most of the length of the stay.

    I would go with an angle of 14 deg. or more. Even then, with a sideways load of 100 lbs on the mast, at the top of the hound, the tension on the line stay would be about 412 lbs, with 312 lbs of that being directly downward, parallel with the mast.

    The more acute the angle, the more carefully the hound has to be designed.
     
  5. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I just had to go look up the term 'hounds'. I can see where they surely were called this in the old days, but these days I refer to those blocks of material as the cheeks, or cheek blocks.

    1) http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?397970-Why-are-the-Hounds-on-a-mast-called-the-HOUNDS

    2) https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/hounds.4583/
    At both of these sites I see a reference to 'hound cheeks'

    Perhaps a cheek block something like this...
    [​IMG]

    Newer soft rigging attachments
    Mast Connections http://www.colligomarine.com/mastconnections-gallery/
     
  6. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I just really like the idea of wrapping the rigging AROUND the mast tube rather than drilling into the tube and using those swaged fittings etc.
    Plus perhaps on some of our vessels we could keep the mast 'tube' watertight,...floatation?
     
  7. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Mast (leaning) Aft

    I've got a big SURPRISE coming soon,...a new rig idea with the mast tilted back almost as much as mine is titled forward. Got the idea while viewing the 'tall ships' that were visiting Lunenburg NS about a week ago.
     
  8. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Been quite some time since I visited this old subject thread,...so long that I had trouble finding it. :confused:

    I just happen to be reading an interesting article that appears to reinforce the use of headsails,...AGAIN in this modern world,....just when many of the naysayers on this subject thread claim that fractional rigs with small headsails were the only way to go.:rolleyes:

    Not a Genoa. Not a Spinnaker. It’s a Tweener!
    https://offshoreracingrule.org/63-2019-news/161-not-a-genoa-not-a-spinnaker-it-s-a-tweener

    “A tweener can turn a white-knuckle reach into a fun sail,” says Al Declerq of Doyle Sails Detroit. “And it can sail surprisingly fast at deeper angles than expected. In 10 years, every boat will have one.”

    [​IMG]

    During the 2019 CYC Race to Mackinac, Arctos sets a tweener headsail (gray) in light conditions, to leeward of a 75-percent girth spinnaker. Photo by Photoboat.com.

    ......."Just in case you thought this was a brand new idea, note that multihull sailors have long carried a similar roller-furled sail called a “spreacher”—short for spinnaker reacher. Whatever you call it, it looks as if the sail is now aboard monohulls to stay, and you can put one to work for you as long as you’re racing with an ORR or ORR-Ez rating."
     
  9. pbmaise
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    Philip here with update on his big trimaran. Well I sold her. She is now hauling up to 60 tourists per trip in Langkawi.

    This thread predated my purchase in 2009 and continues forward after her sale a few months ago.

    The key mistakes I made with my experiments were:

    1. Attempting to gain too much sail area by using a very tall aft-mast.

    2. Allowing Tasker to talk me into sail cloth far too heavy.

    3. Not using a roller furler.

    My later conversion to a modest gaff rig taught me that there really was no reason for a cruising sailor like myself to be flying so much canvas. Further, I DIY'ed my own roller furler for the headsail and learned that since I didn't want to fly any canvas in a squall or very high winds that a hank on foresail really isn't anything to be ashamed of.
     
  10. pbmaise
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    I want to relate a very pleasant experience I had with what I call a screecher.

    I inherited the sail when I purchased the vessel and never had a big tall center mast to fly it. Being the experimental sort, I hauled it up the mast sideways. 20180703_151209.jpg

    I apologize I have the gaff rigged main in the same shot. Notice the screecher "head" is out of view to the left in the photo. I had to secure it on the rear cleat on leeward ama. Before everyone starts yelling at me, let me first admit that yes this sail obviously was not designed to fly this way. This said, I was able to sail my vessel up to 8.5 knots on this sail alone. Wind was beam on and about a constant 15 knots. Yes, that is right, the mainsail was down and this sail, that I could pickup out of my storage locker single handed, powered a 65ft trimaran at 8.5 knots.

    This was working so well I was thinking of making a larger one with a bigger foot so I didn't miss so much wind escaping below it.

    The point I am slowly coming to is all about the cut of the sail used in an aft mast rig. I had Tasker make my foresail very much like a jib with a tall luft back end. What proved workable in my little experiment was a sail that came to a point down on deck level. Again what I so anxiously wanted was even more sail area up front.

    And that brings me to the whole point of my post. Gollywobbler. There I said it. I just so much like using this odd word.

    Follow the lines of my main sail and see the gaff pole. Now imagine that gaff pole is replaced by a wire leading up to a mast behind the boom. Also while we are at it. Ditch the boom. I've never liked booms!

    I believe I am correct when I say, that after the addition of the second taller mast, my mainsail seen above would be a gollywobbler. The enter rig would be called a schooner.

    But let's not stop modifications just yet. If I shrank the foremast and moved it forward, I could gain the sail area I enjoyed getting by using a separate foresail. If I was to approximate on my vessel, the foremast would be about 20 ft tall and located 10 ft behind the front chainplate. The aft-mast would only need to be about 45-50ft.

    The whole point of these modifications is to maximizes the size of the gollywobbler. I believe this sail alone would be adequate for cruising. More speed could also be obtained by adding an inner stay sail connected to a boom, a very small foresail, and a stern sail.
     

  11. tgtony52
    Joined: Aug 2015
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    Location: Tea Gardens, Australia

    tgtony52 ...

    4C8BF64E-6EE8-4363-885F-333D1959A817.jpeg 34AD611F-572F-4222-9D7E-4172CD91BE21.jpeg
    My thoughts precisely. Glad to see something on his thread again after quite some time.

    Since my last post I’ve replaced my Honda outboard, located in the cockpit, with a Torqeedo electric drive and designed out my mainsail boom. I’m not sure what you call it, but the length of boom that I cut off the original 5m long boom when I moved the mast 2m aft is now pivoting off the aft deck, a bit like a flag pole, to which the clew of the main attaches. I haven’t had a chance to try either the boomless main nor the electric motor as all my time is taken up in restoring a 25’ 1950s timber cruiser.
     
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