Aftmast rigs???

[brian eiland]

...and then another viewpoint from that same 'main-less' subject thread...

Hi Brian,
thank you for keeping this thread alive.

Like the owner of the Catana 471 quoted above I use headsails as much as possible.

After two years of owning my Salina and 6 months of full time liveaboard, my dislike for my square top, fully battened 'you beaut' mainsails has steadily grown, here are the reasons:

1. it takes 4 strong people to fully hoist it by hand.
2. on my own I can only lift 1/3, then it is a winch job.
3. I need to go head-to or close to headwind for the whole operation, often in the wrong direction.
4. in light winds or DDW I have to use a preventer and shift it at any tack/jybe.
5. I have to contend with the battens getting stuck in the lazy jacks
6. the boom lift line too tight if close hauled,
7. the shrouds cutting into the main on broad reaches
8. the boom shading my solar panels, especially at anchor.
9. and my pet hate is taking reefs.

I could think of more, but lets say that my Genoa is a charm to unfurl on my own, in any directions and any windspeed, I keep it up to 30kn, then I furl it a bit, it works from 35 to 180 degrees and never tries to bash me or push me overboard.

The best thing is that I don't think twice if I want to furl or unfurl it in the middle of the night when my wife is asleep...... I love it.


So, my plan is to sell the main and the boom and put a big furling 'main'?? behind the mast, like some of those Turkish Goulets I mentioned before, then I will not be afraid of having two sail up in the middle of a dark night....


Now, I can hear the armchair sailors and the racing fans say "you'r mad, you'll loose so many knots" etc etc, well, that statement is still to be proven, I have records of my boat performances and will put it to the test.
However, for all the reasons above "I don't care!"

 

[brian eiland]

Sailing Challenge

I recently caught up with an old friend who skippered Olaf Harken's unusual vessel Procyon for its first few years. I showed him a model of my 'single-masted ketch' concept, and then just the other day I sent him a copy of this 'sailing challenge' I had issued to a few naysayers in the past.



You know I can still imagine sailing a big 65-foot catamaran with this mastaft (single-masted ketch) rig right off the mooring, and back to the mooring, without the engine, by myself, with so little effort that I might take it out having only a few spare hours to kill, or for just a carefree daysail.

I wouldn’t have to uncover any sails, nor recover them when I returned to port. I'd likely start out with just unrolling that central 'mainstaysail' then add in more sail area as needed.

I would be less concerned with reefing by myself if the wind were to really come up. If I were short-handed at sea, I would have many of the benefits of a ketch rig, without the necessity of slab reefing the main and mizzen sails of the traditional ketch rig. I'd be in a constant state of helm balance as I could tweak the mizzen sail for that.

That about sums it up. I would like a 65 foot cat that I could take sailing by myself, and that might even be easier than a beach cat. Try hoisting a full batten mainsail on a 65 footer by yourself, or even a 40 footer. Most folks over 50 will have second thoughts, or will just unfurl the jib and forget about hoisting that traditional MAIN sail.

I'm 65 (now 73), and I could sail this 65 foot cat by myself with this aft mast rig. And with the balance and low power afforded by the smaller 'mainstaysail' I could sail this vessel right off the mooring or maybe right off a side-to-dock slip.



Here's a challenge Mr Naysayer..... Le Mans start. I'll be out sailing before you get the covers off your mainsail, and when we return for the day, I'll be at the bar sipping on a Margarita watching you put away your vessel for the day.


Randy sent me a reply this morning...

...reminds me of Procyon,....we would have her sailing before the crew could put away the fenders

 

[brian eiland]

Ketch Rigs

Peter Spronk was a great admirer of 'split rigs',...mostly schooner ones. But he built the largest and fastest design of the its time (1968) with a ketch rig....the 75 foot Ppalu.

I'm going sailing on her tomorrow,...short trip from St Augustine to Daytona. Hopefully we will have some good winds for her powerful ketch rig.

 

[brian eiland]

Taming the Mainsail

...from another forum, discussions of furling mechanisms for mainsails (Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?)

By the way, it occurred to me that no one has mentioned the economic side of in-mast furling.

The initial cost of the system is obviously more -- the special mast is more expensive, and you have the foil, bearings, furling mechanism.

However, the sail is considerably less expensive than a normal full batten mainsail. It is much simpler to make.

And also, the sail lasts considerably longer due to ideal storage without creases and completely protected inside the mast.

So the long term cost might be similar or even cheaper. In-mast furling is a really good pair with a laminate sail which resists stretching for a long time, but which can be damaged from chafe, UV, creasing, etc. A laminate sail in an in-mast furling rig can last a very long time.
Lots of discussions on this subject thread about 'taming the mainsail' on cruising sailboats. And it appears that both options (in-mast, and boom furling) are quite expensive.

My solution, ....eliminate the mainsail and substitute a self tacking, roller furling/reefing staysail. Then add on a nice big headsail (genoa) for those lighter airs (also roller furling/reefing). Then add on a mizzen for balance and reaching (also roller furling)

Sails can be be made of a lighter tougher laminate and will not be continuously creased as they stow rolled up under their own sail cover, ....sewn on (and replaceable)

With this arrangement I could be out for a daysail before most boats get their sails hoisted and rigged. At at the end of the day I could be at the bar with a drink while they are still wrapping things up.

Long term cruising:
1) Most roller furling gear is pretty well sorted out now, and parts availability is not too bad. And their are hydraulic and electric options for both the furling and sheeting operations.
2) Maybe spend a little extra on hi-tech sailcloth that will survive greater winds variations, OR just go for the econo materials that need replacement a little more often, or when subjected to extreme conditions. At any rate both options sound a bit cheaper that boom furling options.
3) Cut down my overall mast height by 20% while still carrying the same sail area of the sloop option for the vessel.

It wasn't a cost issue with me but rather a real questioning of effectiveness of the main-sail aerodynamically, associated with all the gear we had to invent to handle that mainsail,...in-mast furling, boom furling, bendy mast, rotating mast, boom vangs, square tops, multi-purchase mainsheets, and their quick releases, elaborate travelers, roller bearing mast cars, special full length battens, etc, etc.

All the while realizing that the mainsail itself is a great 'provider' for a more efficient headsail. So why not substitute a roller furling staysail in its place?...so I chose to call it a 'mainstaysail'


...another discussion
In-Boom Furling Experiences
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2260936#post2260936

 

[brian eiland]

Cruising Catamaran in 40kts of Wind

I've been away from CF for a while, and just finished reading this thread. My thoughts and sympathies go out to the crew of Leopard. Thankfully no one was lost!

It never ceases to amaze me how opinionated the uneducated can be! After years of research (and owning 3 mono-hulls), we chose a Catana 50 for our circumnavigation because I felt it was the safest and most comfortable option for a short-handed crew. We are a retired couple, and my wife, although a very able and capable hand, does not know how to sail. Our Catana is by far the easiest, and I believe safest boat I have ever sailed - period.

A few weeks ago we did an overnight 120 mile dead downwind romp in 20 - 35 knots, and the typical (for the Aegean) very steep +- 2 meter following seas. Yes, we saw the forecast and chose to go sailing! And, yes, I did it almost 100% of the time from the cozy comfort of my forward-looking nav station inside.

We did it under a double-reefed main sheeted hard on the downwind mainsheet, which is only about 20 - 25 degrees off center (Catanas have A-frame mainsheet arrangements). We sailed about 10 degrees off DDW all night long, with no worry about jibing at all, because it doesn't matter if the boat jibes. With the main sheeted tight like that, the boom will not move more than about 50cm in a jibe. In fact we did jibe a couple of times when the wind shifted (also very common in the Aegean), and one of those times the only reason I noticed we had jibed was because we started to slow down more than usual as a wave rolled under us. All I do is dial up a bit on the autopilot until we jibe back, and carry on. We averaged just under 8 knots over the 120 miles. We could have easily increased our average speed by at least 3, maybe 4 knots. But when it's just the two of us, and at night, we always choose safety and comfort over excitement! Speaking of comfort, we did not have to stow one single item before we departed. Even our 1.5L water bottles stayed standing upright on the galley counter.

If you think I'm BSing, have a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBve75x04o


My outside steering stations only get used when I want to manually steer for pleasure (which is quite often in fair weather), or if we are tacking or jibing. Everything else can be done perfectly safely from inside, including 360 degree visuals. The only thing I need to go to the cockpit for is to do visual rig checks, which I do every 10 - 20 minutes, and for sail adjustments, which get done standing upright in the center of the cockpit.

I own high-performance cars, not because I drive them at 270km per hour (which they are perfectly capable of doing, and I have done under appropriate circumstances), but because they are exponentially safer to drive under normal conditions than regular sedans or mini-vans! No different for well built performance oriented catamarans, and for that matter well built performance monohulls. Different story completely for very light, high-tech racing catamarans (or mono-hulls!). But the last time I checked, the world is still a fairly free place, and people are entitled to do whatever they want.

Bottom line; know your and your boat's limits, and sail within them! And, keep your fingers crossed that you don't find yourself in the path of very nasty weather or a whale, etc. Those are the risks of being on the sea that can never be completely eliminated.

So in my opinion, anyone that believes a well-built "performance" cruising catamaran is dangerous, is either uneducated or envious!

Purrring along......
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/atlantic-57-catamaran-capsized-175996-16.html#post2267240

I saw this posting on another forum and thought I might want to reference it for future folks that might be questioning the use of a multihull craft in higher winds and sea conditions.

In the video that is linked you might also take note of the triple reefed mainsail being utilized. I submit that the 'mainstaysail' on my aftmast rig could be performing this same task.

 

[CT249]

It wasn't a cost issue with me but rather a real questioning of effectiveness of the main-sail aerodynamically, associated with all the gear we had to invent to handle that mainsail,...in-mast furling, boom furling, bendy mast, rotating mast, boom vangs, square tops, multi-purchase mainsheets, and their quick releases, elaborate travelers, roller bearing mast cars, special full length battens, etc, etc.

All the while realizing that the mainsail itself is a great 'provider' for a more efficient headsail. So why not substitute a roller furling staysail in its place?...so I chose to call it a 'mainstaysail'

I thought you had agreed, after reading posts from Tom and Mikka, that there was no real question about the aerodynamic effectiveness of the mainsail?

Secondly, surely as a matter of basic logic we must compare like with like. You listed the gear a main needs, but ignored the gear a jib needs such as a pair of expensive and powerful winches, tracks and a furler.

Much of the mainsail equipment you are referring to is used to make the mainsail even more efficient than a headsail in some situations. The vang provides superior twist control at wide sheeting angles. The boom provides superior extension and prevents excessive fullness with the sheet eased. The traveller allows superior control of twist at tighter apparent wind angles. The block and tackle on the mainsheet reduces loads compared to a one-part jibsheet, so you need a smaller winch (if any).

You don't need any of that equipment if you are happy with a mainsail that sets as badly as a foresail tends to when running deep. If you do want a foresail that sets just as well as a mainsail in such a situation, you need a pole with topping lift and downhaul, perhaps some big-boat version of the British dinghy "dangly pole", a way of easily adjusting the transverse sheeting position, a way of easily adjusting the fore-and-aft sheeting position, etc. By the time you have added that equipment the mainsail is looking fairly cheap and easy to use by comparison.

Yep, your rig may well make it easier to get under way. Maybe you'd have had more success in selling the concept if you concentrated on that aspect rather than making claims about its aero- and equipment-efficiency that, with respect, seem to be clutching at straws?

 

[Bod]

i have for a while studied yachts leaving and making port to see which sails they raise or lower first. i have witnessed vast majority raise the main first and lower it last. when i occasionally see a sailor use his furling jib first to remember the boat as i know i am likely to be on the same page as them and he/she will most like be under sail much closer to port and even in the harbour.

personally i cant stand my main sail and avoid using it. often i wont use it at all if my unfurled genoa is full and pushing my little achilles along nicely. using the jib first or alone lets me sail up rivers and around harbours with ease.

my main sail is a pain in the arse and frankly dangerous when the conditions turn sour. leaving the cockpit in a gale heeled over is not fun. much better to stay seated and furl in the safety of the cockpit.

a main may offer more sail efficiency no doubt. but downwind i attach a pole to the clew of my genoa giving her a nice shape. the same can be done with a furling main, and only one sheet for a furling main as its behind the shrouds.

a little more efficiency is no trade off for comfort, safety, control and ease....

 

[brian eiland]

Thanks Bod for that reinforcement.

Perhaps its a good time to post this observation...

The single greatest development in sailing, and motorsailing, in two centuries has happened in the past few decades

All the things mentioned so far in this thread are very significant, but as far as sailing is concerned, I have to agree with what Michael Pierzga said, above in this thread, about roller furling, and I will add that roller furling/reliable roller reefing constitute THE single greatest fundamental development in sailing in the past couple of centuries.

This thread started off about powerboating, but I don't think I'm stretching it too far to include motorsailers, which are powered by motors AND sails.

At any rate, the three examples I give at the bottom of this are all motor sailers, as much motor as sail and vice versa. ALL their sails furl, and those flat-cut furling sails lend themselves to motorsailing far better than did their built-in camber forebears. And the sails, because they are so effective, and easy and safe to handle, get used for motorsailing just as much as, if not more than for just plain sailing.

Other than having a sail or two or three, and some kind of a mast or two to hold them up, and some kind of a keel/hydrofoil or whatever in the water to keep from getting blown sideways, and a motor for when there's no wind and for maneuvering, the other ONE single thing that most sailboats, and motorsailers, now have in common is at least one furling sail. Whether a boat is an old wooden one or the most modern, whether it has a motor or not, or any electronics, it is very unusual if it does NOT have a furling sail. And most substantial off-shore cruising sailboats have at least two furling sails, as well as a big motor, or two.

A great many cruisers, especially middle-aged couples out for a holiday cruise, now very seldom use their mainsails. If they HAVE to go to windward, they motor, or motorsail with just a jib or staysail. Or they wait at anchor for a fair wind and then sail with the big furling jib.

You can take the attitude that the furling sail has made people lazy. Or, you can realize that it has made sailing much more relaxing and fun, and as Michael Pierzga put it, "accessible" to a great many people.

And it's not just another labor-saving mod convenience. Let's not forget safety. You can add or reduce sail without having to round up into the wind and without leaving the safety of the cockpit. You can do it manually or just by pressing a button.

I have an elderly neighbor who lives aboard and still cruises, long distances, in his big steel ketch. Recently he was gazing dreamily at my rig with all furling sails, 4 of them, including a boomless, furling mainsail, and he said, "You know, I think I'll break down and get myself a furling mainsail. I haven't used my mainsail in about 10 years. What the hell! maybe a furling mizzen, too!"

Greenpeace's new 840 ton Rainbow Warrior III, just launched this July, with two 50-meter A-frame masts, has all furling sails, 5 of them. See photos below and some sailing scenes about 1 min. into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhuSpD81FOQ

And see her motoring, under diesel/electric power, with all sails furled, in this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjncCTnpPSc

The SMG 50 catamaran NumberOne has an A-frame mast, a furling genoa, a furling staysail and a boomless furling mainsail, and came in first of 100 substantial boats racing in the Adriatic in 2009, beating a number of other big cats and proving her upwind ability by tacking better than big, fast monohulls. See photos below and more details and video at:

http://www.sail-the-difference.com/..._of_the_easy_to_use_smg_catamaran/smg_50plus/

The Malcolm Tennant designed 63-ft. catamaran motorsailer, Catbird Suite, has A-frame mast and 4 furling sails (a genoa on each bow, a staysail, and a boomless main). See photos below and more detail at

www.damsl.com (no longer valid link)

(The photos are in my next post.)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/top-innovations-boat-design-equipment-40201-2.html#post496268

 

[CT249]

i have for a while studied yachts leaving and making port to see which sails they raise or lower first. i have witnessed vast majority raise the main first and lower it last. when i occasionally see a sailor use his furling jib first to remember the boat as i know i am likely to be on the same page as them and he/she will most like be under sail much closer to port and even in the harbour.

personally i cant stand my main sail and avoid using it. often i wont use it at all if my unfurled genoa is full and pushing my little achilles along nicely. using the jib first or alone lets me sail up rivers and around harbours with ease.

my main sail is a pain in the arse and frankly dangerous when the conditions turn sour. leaving the cockpit in a gale heeled over is not fun. much better to stay seated and furl in the safety of the cockpit.

a main may offer more sail efficiency no doubt. but downwind i attach a pole to the clew of my genoa giving her a nice shape. the same can be done with a furling main, and only one sheet for a furling main as its behind the shrouds.

a little more efficiency is no trade off for comfort, safety, control and ease....

Well, it's all personal. Personally I find a mainsail much more controllable and easy than a headsail; you don't have to work the jibsheets each tack or gybe for a start. Nor do you have to leave the cockpit to reef if you have the reefs set up for use from the cockpit.

The standard Achilles' rig isn't the best design to use under main alone, and of course this is very much a personal matter that is down to personal preferences. If someone loves an all-furling rig then good on them. The issue is that promotion of such rigs surely should be done on a rational basis comparing like to like.

 

[brian eiland]

Double A-frame Rig

Here are the things I have at home to scan . The first is an article that was published in Multihulls magazine . The second was for Publication in the Amateur Yacht Research Society .
View attachment Geniatric Rig, an A frame.pdf

The 2 photos were taken in the spring of 79 of Annapolis on my way home from the Bahamas as you can see the rig was quite light if unusual in appearance . It was absolutely the easiest boat I have ever single handed . 0 to full sail in 30 seconds (I timed it once ) and there was only one halyard for the storm jib ,the rest of the sails where bolted up and tensioned with a turnbuckle at the bottom . With such small tubes my 19 year old self could go hand over hand up the mast with a bosuns chair around my waist and throw a loop over the top to work on the rig.

My Dad is an engineer who was never afraid of taking his own path and never blew his own horn ,you can see this by his speed claims of 6 to 7 knots . Remember this was in the era of the Alberg ,Grampians so was quite fast at the time .I did see 16 knots once on a broad reach. This boat has the same basic shapes and characteristics as the PDQ36 which he also designed .

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/wishbone-sailing-rig-1999-21.html#post791597

(all 3 sails roller furl & he refers to the rig at one point as a ketch type)

 

[Spiv]

..................

personally i cant stand my main sail and avoid using it. often i wont use it at all if my unfurled genoa is full and pushing my little achilles along nicely. using the jib first or alone lets me sail up rivers and around harbours with ease.

my main sail is a pain in the arse and frankly dangerous when the conditions turn sour. leaving the cockpit in a gale heeled over is not fun. much better to stay seated and furl in the safety of the cockpit.
........................a little more efficiency is no trade off for comfort, safety, control and ease....

Same here.
I crossed the Atlantic in 17 days mainly using a Parasailor with winds >18Kn and Genoa <18kn. When it blew over 30kn, I just furled the Genoa accordingly.
I crossed the Pacific in 19 days using the the Code 0 and the Genoa, sometimes together.

We played card games, cooked exceptional meals, relaxed, never worried about the sails or accidental jibes.
For me, nothing beats headsails on furlers when going downwind in the trades.

In 5y cruising, I did use my top notch Square-Top Main, but it was on a "need to" bases and reluctantly, I'd much rather had a furling main, but that was not an option.

 

[brian eiland]

"Think One"

....I thought you had agreed, after reading posts from Tom and Mikka, that there was no real question about the aerodynamic effectiveness of the mainsail?

I don't know that I agreed with that total effectiveness of the mainsail. I still view it more like this opinion voiced by Mikko

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/209338/news/Ad_aerodynamics/index2.htm

Think one
To understand how the mainsail and the jib work together, it may be useful to think of them as one wing with a slot in the middle. The jib forms the front part of the wing (leading edge in aircraft terminology) and the mainsail forms the back part (trailing edge). The jib is the curved, smooth shaped front part of the wing, the main is the more straight, flat part. When you adjust the main sheet or traveler, you adjust the camber of the whole wing in a very smooth way, around the hinge that the mast forms.

When you keep in mind that pressure always acts perpendicular to the surface, it is easy to see why the jib usually is in charge of most of the forward driving force, while the main causes most only heel. When sailing upwind most of the surface of the jib is oriented in the direction of the motion, while most of the surface of the main is oriented perpendicular to it, the leech often even pulling back. But it would be wrong to think that the jib is more important for that. The mainsail is bending the air in front of the jib, allowing the boat to point higher than with the jib alone, and also helping the jib bear more loading without stalling.

I did come around to his suggestions that the mast tube itself is NOT as much of a hindrance to the mainsail's aero properties as I had originally ascribed to it.

With this 'Think One' image in mind, combined with some discussions of aerodynamic flaps, and supposed advantages of over-sheeted mainsails, I wonder if my mizzen sail on the single-masted ketch might just be made to act like an aero flap to my rig as a whole

 

[upchurchmr]

"When sailing upwind most of the surface of the jib is oriented in the direction of the motion, while most of the surface of the main is oriented perpendicular to it, the leech often even pulling back."

This is the worst statement of "fact" I have ever seen.
I don't know what kind of a terrible boat or sailor is being represented here, but on my old Tornado catamaran the angle of incedince of both sails is almost equal.

Additionally, in heavy weather I easily left the jib off and sailed extremely fast and weatherly.

I can't believe this is being quoted by anyone who sails.

 

[tgtony52]

Current Vendée Globe yacht designs becoming more aft mast

Somewhat similar...ha...ha
View attachment 105173

Current leading yacht in the 2016-7 Vendée Globe yacht race, Hugo Boss, is showing the way in competitive yacht design. The trend in the design of these IMOCA 60 boats over the last couple of decades clearly shows the mast position has moved significantly aft.

 

[tgtony52]

IMOCA yachts in Vendee Globe race

All these yachts were launched in 2015 and are currently racing in the Vendee Globe. All have their mast aft of the middle of the boat. Proof of design is in the performance!