Aftmast rigs???

Here's an idea I've been playing with.

What happens if you take a cutter and move the mast wa-a-a-y back.

In the attached drawing, I've moved it about as far aft as I think is possible, without aft facing spreaders.

I've further simplified the rig by moving the headboard of the staysail (which acts as the mainsail) all the way to the top of the mast.

Though this is not entirely aerodynamically kosher, it does get rid of another set of spreaders and those nasty running back stays.

To somewhat compensate for this aerodynamic sin, I've moved the tack, of the main (staysail), aft to halfway between the mast and the forestay.

Arguably, the top 25% of each staysail is going to interfere with that of the other, producing little actual drive. But that accounts for only about 1/16 of the area of each sail. A worthy sacrifice, in the interest of simplicity and durability. For a cruising boat, I think this is a good trade.

In blowing conditions, the jib and mizzen are struck, leaving the the main (staysail) to drive the boat. This is also a good arrangement for anchoring.

In survival conditions. The main is struck and the mizzen and a very small jibe are raised. The small jib acts primarily to balance the the far aft mizzen. This relieves quite a bit of mast compression and provides, I hope, adequate drive to stay off the lee rocks.

In order for this to work, the ribbon mizzen must be able to provide at least decent drive.

Running it up a track behind an oval or elliptical section mast will not do.

The mizzen, drawn, only attaches to the mast with one or two hoops, the top of which can go no higher than about one foot below the spreaders. Besides the hoop(s), the main runs up a jack line, behind the mast, so less load is put on its halyard to keep the luff reasonably straight.

The sag of the jack line allows the luff of the mizzen to get closer to the lee side of the mast, which, hopefully, restores at least most of its drive.


The mast is round in section for this reason.

Probably the top 1/3rd of the mizzen will provide no drive at all, but that accounts for about 11% of its area. What it doesn't provide in drive, it may well make up for in mitigating at least some of the drag of the top 25% of the mast
I was just running back (pun) thru this subject thread looking for something else, and ran across this posting again. I've quoted it here so I remember to take a fresh look at your mizzen mounting idea.
 
I was just running back (pun) thru this subject thread looking for something else, and ran across this posting again. I've quoted it here so I remember to take a fresh look at your mizzen mounting idea.

Gee, Brian, I take this as quite a compliment.

Attached is the drawing, so you don't have to dig it up.
 

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I thought it had been already agreed around here that the claim that the mast destroys the efficiency of a mainsail is wrong? In that case, why go for hoops and a jackstay (which will involve considerable compression loads)?

What is the advantage of dropping a boomed sail instead of reefing it? In my limited experience I found dropping a ketch's mainsail a few hundred miles offshore was a PITA. You had to try to furl a sail sticking several feet above the deck onto a boom, while the wind got under it and flogged it around. Reefing the main or dropping a jib was much easier.
 
I thought it had been already agreed around here that the claim that the mast destroys the efficiency of a mainsail is wrong? In that case, why go for hoops and a jackstay (which will involve considerable compression loads)?

What is the advantage of dropping a boomed sail instead of reefing it? In my limited experience I found dropping a ketch's mainsail a few hundred miles offshore was a PITA. You had to try to furl a sail sticking several feet above the deck onto a boom, while the wind got under it and flogged it around. Reefing the main or dropping a jib was much easier.

In your case, did the mainsail have lazy jacks?

If it didn't, I couldn't agree more.

With Lazy Jacks the sail is more or less contained, so the wind really can't blow it around.

From sitting at my desk, I can imagine it is far easier to lower a sail, which is then contained by Lazy Jacks, than it is to slab reef it.

On my Siren 17, I found reefing the Main to be a PIA.

I had to lower the sail, pin in the new Tack, tie in the new Clew, then bundle up the rest of the mess. All of this while I'm riding the swells up and down, like an unstoppable elevator, and the sail is fluttering like mad.

If I had bothered to rig Lazy Jacks, the whole operation would have been so much easier, but still there would have been the bit with the Tack, the Clew, and bundling.

By simply dropping the sail (made possible with the Mast-aft Cutter rig), I reason, I eliminate two of these three steps, leaving just the bundling.

As for the Jack Line, I reason it allows the Luff of the sail to somewhat end up on the lee of the mast. This is all the more important when you have a very tall, narrow main, and a fat compression tube for a Mast.

I keep in mind two things with my reasoning:

1.) the Jack Line holds only about 25% of the Main's area close to the Mast. The Hoops hold the other 75% of it. The Hoops hold not just that portion of the Sail Area there, but about half of the Jack Line as well.

2.) The Jack Line does add compression to the mast, but about 40-50% less than a single-part Halyard would, if it were trying to do the same job.

I know that in racing Lazy Jacks are rarely used, as they do cause some unwanted drag. And there are usually plenty of hands available, in proportion of the size of the boat too. In cruising, the crew is usually smaller and often far more tired, as they tend to be older and less able.

Durable, simple, and easy to repair, labor saving devices, such as Lazy Jacks are well worth the few percent loss of performance they may cause on a cruising boat. In fact, they might actually add performance there, as the labor they save makes the crew less tired and able to perform better.

Attached is a sketch of a ketch rig design of mine, showing the Lazy Jacks, in case some thread followers don' know what they are. These are the spider web like lines crossing the Main Sail. Now that I look at it, that rig could use at least one more Lazy Jack, leading to the middle of the Boom.

Also attached is a sketch of my Mast-aft cutter, so readers can see that the 'Main' can be simply dropped, if the jib is too.
 

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Nope, that main didn't have lazyjacks and yes, they can certainly help.

With respect, the Siren's reefing system seems outdated. You can easily fit a reefing system that uses just one reefing line, or perhaps a reefing line and a tack downhaul, which allows very easy reefing. On a 30-something footer the tack line can just be the cunningham; a 4mm going through a tackle. The clew line just involves winding in 6' of 6mm, which is mostly pulled in by hand. No big deal.

In comparison, dropping a jib means going onto the foredeck, pulling it down manually and then lashing it. No big deal either, but arguably no easier.
 
...In comparison, dropping a jib means going onto the foredeck, pulling it down manually and then lashing it. No big deal either, but arguably no easier.

Actually you don't have to go up on the fore deck to bring down a jib.

A Down-Haul works quite well. And once the Head is down on the deck, the sheet line can be pulled tight. Yeah, it would be a good idea to bundle it up, but that doesn't have to be done right away.

I can imagine, in a squall situation, the jib and tiny main could be pulled down, with the jib sprawling on the deck and the Main cradled in its Lazy Jacks, to wait out the squall. Then they could be hauled back up, with the crew never leaving the Halyard station.

I think about things like this a lot, as I like to design tiny boats which might have to face a wide variety of wind strengths.

With tiny boats, reefing can be a problem, because the skipper is often the heaviest item on board, and can even be heavier than the boat itself. If he/she has to move far from his/her ideal position, the boat's for-and-aft trim can be affected dramatically.

Even with the small gaff headed ketch, shown in my last post, which should tip the scales at about 3,000 lbs, all-up, I don't want the skipper going to the extreme bow to take in the jib, or straddling the pointed stern, to take in the mizzen. The jib would have a down-haul and the mizzen would have a Clew out-haul, combined with braille lines, so it would furl to the Mast.
 
Yes, it all depends on your background. I don't leave the jib loose on the foredeck when it's getting rough, even if the sheet is tight and it's hanked on. The leach can still flog and there's too much chance of a wave breaking over the bow, filling up the furled jib, and destroying the stanchions. That's the reason reefing jibs went out of style, and it happened on at least one boat I sailed on.
 
Are Genoas a Thing of the Past

...a few excerpts from another forum discussion...

SailingAnarchy said:
The early iterations of IOR penalized mainsail area harshly, and jib/genoa area much less. That is why the early IOR boats like the Ericson 39s and Ranger 37s had tiny mains, and huge masthead genoas.

Over time, the situation moderated, and larger mains became more fashionable. By the mid-1980s, this penalty situation had been corrected, and boats could be designed with fractional or masthead jibs, at the option of the designer. It was generally thought that fractional inventories were less expensive to maintain because the mainsail was the only large sail in the inventory. At present, we see a big shift toward non-overlapping jibs in classes like the TP 52s. One reason for this is that they use athwart-ships jib leads, so the jib sheet can be moved in-board to reduce the angle of incidence of the headsail, which makes the boats closer-winded.

Of course, those boats compensate for reduced sail area by using masthead genoas, and Code 0s to add reaching sail area.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=173221&p=5443860

(Brian's note: Hmmmm,...another case of rating rules designing our boat :eek::D:rolleyes:)


8mr still use rather large genoa's as well..

82d17f_047e4a00a724491f80a2a143d04f8c66.jpg

I sailed this last month, loved every minute of it... It should be close to 180%.
Regata-Illas-Atlánticas-2016-82.jpg
 
I thought it had been already agreed around here that the claim that the mast destroys the efficiency of a mainsail is wrong? In that case, why go for hoops and a jackstay (which will involve considerable compression loads)?
I believe it was my contention that the mast at the leading edge of a mainsail offered a considerable hindrance to efficiency of the mainsail:
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/

a) The Bermudian mainsail operates behind a mast at its leading edge. Mast induced turbulence renders totally ineffective, the first 1' ~ 2' strip of sail area all way up the luff of the sail. This is a sizable area not doing work for you. Want simply and dramatic proof; go rent a Hobie (or any other) cat and take it for a sail with its mast restrained from rotation. On the same point of sail, let the mast rotate and experience the acceleration as the addition sail area comes into play.

b) As much as the top 15% of the narrow, triangular head of the mainsail is useless behind the proportionally larger mast profile. Not only is this sail area ineffective, but the aero-configuration induces significant drag. Modern multihulls have been cutting this upper portion of the mast height off, and adding a 'fat headed' mainsail. Even the old 12 Meter "Lionheart" exploited this theme.

c) Almost universally, clumsy booms and all their associated vangs, mainsheets, travelers, outhauls etc, etc. are utilized. Lots of (excessive) hardware and many occasions for this hardware to interfere with the sailor's bodies themselves.

d) Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway.

e) The draft pocket of the main is inclined to the vertical such that the sail drives forward and downward. On reaches and broad reaches this contributes lots of downward pressure on the hull(s), and particularly the bow(s).

g) Fully battened mains are definitely much more efficient, but pay a price in additional hardware, and a significant weight penalty. In larger boats these sails are not easily raised by man power. And unless they're attached to a rotating mast, they still suffer a significant loss of effective sail area.

h) Mainsails do not come down or go up with any ease unless the boat is pointed into the wind. And this shortcoming is exacerbated in heavy weather.

Now it has been subsequently shown (by Mikko) that the mast in some cases does not offer as much hindrance as I once pronounced. And that having the sail attached to rear portion of the mast decreases the drag forces that might be experienced in a 'bare mast' situation.

But in the overall scheme of things a minimal size mast tube at the leading edge of the sail would certainly be beneficial in most cases. And the size of the mainsail behind that mast would be another important factor. If this attached sail is relatively small (as might likely be the case with a mizzen sail), then the leading edge dynamics should be reviewed anew. As the sail behind this mast tube is made ever smaller, its effectiveness (efficiency) becomes more problematic.

My mizzen sail is mounted onto a nice rigid foil which I believe is superior to having a much bigger mast section at that leading edge.

As an alternate I willing to consider Sharpii2's idea of this mizzen sail attached to the mast via hoops. What I find interesting here is that it would allow the luff of the sail to migrate over to the lee side of the mast tube, thus allowing for a cleaner airflow over the lee side of the mast-sail combination.

We all know that its the lee side airflow that is most important in our sail settings. I seem to recall that a form of this idea has proven superior in the past, but I can't exactly remember were it was documented. The one somewhat similar example I can think of is a rotating mast configuration where the attached mainsail streams off the effectively 'lee side' of the mast tube.

I can not see where a hoop mounted sail would add that much more compression loading to the mast over a normal halyard hoisted sail.
My mizzen sail's halyard loading would not have to add much additional loading at all, since it is already on a very highly loaded stay already.
 
Windsurfers have been using RAF ("Rotating Assymetrical Foil") sail designs that allow (or actually force) the luff to migrate to the lee side since about 1984. They are slower than camber-induced sails, where the luff is behind the mast.

The hoop idea started to die out almost 100 years ago. As the Star class history says, as soon as the marconi came along and sailors could use slides instead of hoops on the mast, they did. They then found that "the track and slide idea was so convenient it was applied to the boom also." Other classes did the same. They wouldn't have modified the boats if it made them slower.

The reference to compression loads was about Sharpii's idea of a stay behind the mast, to which the mainsail luff was fastened. I'd have thought the triangulation of forces would have lead to great compression loads being applied to the mast, but I'm not an engineer.
 
Adapting to getting older

Just discovered this subject thread on another forum


Winching a large overlapping genoa in a breeze on a beam reach is quite a strain for most people, much more so in my experience than when tacking - when generally would hold the boat close to the wind to aid sheeting.
So don't over worry in that aspect.
And boat change would be a very expensive option, compared to some selective optimisations.

Electric genny winches are an option - but the new Pontos 4 speed winches would be worth a look and are getting rave reviews.
Personally I would want the halyards and reefing lines led back to the cockpit - but could be a hassle doing this if not a design option on this boat type. However, many seem to like controls at mast so there must be ways of doing it.

Assuming you have a stack pack main, if sailing solo I might have simply headed up and dumped the entire main into the stack pack (should happen without going on deck), unfurled the full genoa to sail under jib only - and then put the kettle on for a cuppa. That's the big benefit of larger genny compared to a small blade jib - can generally do a lot of lazy sailing with the mainsail cover still on - though this is where better winches are needed, as more tricky to sheet in when tacking with no mainsail up


Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?464629-adapting-to-getting-older#1e7i4oEkpVtIdthk.99
 
Yes, it all depends on your background. I don't leave the jib loose on the foredeck when it's getting rough, even if the sheet is tight and it's hanked on. The leach can still flog and there's too much chance of a wave breaking over the bow, filling up the furled jib, and destroying the stanchions. That's the reason reefing jibs went out of style, and it happened on at least one boat I sailed on.

Good point. Thank you. I can see now, that if I turned downwind, with the jib on the deck, it could fill with wind from the leach. And I wouldn't be able to do much about it, other than turn upwind. If a wave were to come on deck at that time, it could be disaster.

Actually, a good roller furling jib would be best, if one of sufficient quality and durability could be afforded. But it must work in even the worst conditions.
If that was the case, a straight masthead sloop would have much to recommend it. The inner stay could be eliminated, the Mast could still be back, close to the cockpit.

My Siren 17 had what was called a 'spool furling' system for its jib.

The jib had its own wire luff, didn't hank onto the fore stay, had a swivel on top and a cordage drum on the bottom. It routinely jambed. But I was always able to set the boat on a stable course, crawl up front and un-jamb it, then use it to furl the jib, while I was near the helm. I suppose it earned its keep, for this reason. If windy weather was expected, I simply left the jib furled and sailed under the main alone. This is one of the reasons the 3/4 rig is my favorite version of the Bermuda Rig.

In defense of my Down Haul idea, the jib or stay sail could be hauled down to the deck, the boat could be turned onto a stable course, then the sail in question could be secured. The argument for this is this process could be done after the sail has been shortened, and while the boat is presumably under better control.

Were jibs with reef points ever used in racing?

I thought headsail swopping was the usual order of the day.

In the cruising world, I know they were replaced with roller furling gear.
 
Adapting to getting older

another quoted posting from that other subject thread

TQA said:
69 and holding with a 44 ft cutter. Slab reefing on the main with a fully battened main lazy jacks and a stack pack works OK, but I do have to go to the mast to reef.

I am more inclined to gear down a little and be conservative with the amount of sail I set being happy to jog along at 6 knots with a reefed main and staysail than to keep the pedal to the metal all the time and bury the rail
That reefed mainsail of his might just be the same as my 'mainstaysail', and my 104% genoa could be partially furled to account for winds in the range of 5 to 25-30 knots.
 
I was just reviewing this subject thread titled 'Main-Less Rig', and found this particular posting:
I am in Turkey and when I visited the port of Fethiye, I could not believe my eyes: Hundreds of boats with the best cruising rigs!!!

They are mostly Schooners, but some are Ketch rigged.
In this port, contrary to some other I have been, it seems they hate booms and standard mainsails, so they fitted a furling sail behind their masts.

Also twin parallel, furling headsails and believe it or not furling mizzens.

Brian and many of us have been promoters of parallel headsails for their greater efficiency.
All those furlers give you a practically infinite sail trimming capacity AND, at any wind angle!

Schooner or Ketch, I am not so sure what's more efficient, but I think the Schooner looks better and you could probably tension the headstays more.

A free beer for anybody that can find an easier rig for a cruiser!
 
...and another posting from that other subject thread....

577953 said:
...from a discussion over on this forum:
http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2475
Here are my considerations:
1- Head sail: Due to the restriction imposed by the shrouds which are not very forward, when off the wind (hopefully most time in the tropics) the main sail will be pretty useless except for the roach. The driving force will be mostly from the head sail. That's the reason I don't want a self tacking jib that seems so popular on cats. Also I don't like the sheet angle on self tackers. Pls correct me if I am wrong.


Then the reply from owner of a Catana 471:
You are definitely not wrong, IMHO. And my shrouds are also swept aft quite a bit. When deep off the wind I prefer to use headsails without the main. I have three to choose from, a big genoa (60 m2), a big Code 0 (1700 ft2), and a big sym spi (150 m2). Last fall on an 8 day passage from Ches Bay to Tortola we didn't raise the main for the first 6 days. It was all DDW 15 to 30 in big surfing seas. We used all three headsails as the wind speed varied. Very comfortable and easy on the boat and crew. Could we have gone faster using the main? Of course. But we weren't racing and wanted and preferred comfort and less work vs top speed. We still managed ~160 nm/day for the passage, even including the last 2 slow days. We arrived rested and without anything broken.
 
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