Aftmast rigs???

Centreline centreboards were common in Aus for years but were dumped because of the end-plate issues, I think

Now that brings back memories. Having cut my teeth (so to speak) on catamarans with centreline centreboards , i'm not sure they were dumped because of " end -plate issues". Just my opinion , mind you.:p

The Arafura Cadet and Arrow were probably the last designs with them?

The Quick Cat was a beast.

There was a lot of structure and weight tied up in the large center board.IMO

There was also a lot of pain and blood-shed involved in negotiating a route around the structure during tacks.

I'm sure one could prove with math that no endplate is detrimental, but there was the advantage of moving the CLR aft with a small swing of the boards and the kick up when grounding. Maybe boat design became less practically orientated.

Basically soft decks and the quest for lighter boats were the death knell of centreline centreboards on cats. IMO:D
 
I'm sure in this thread a startup designer posted about his 35ish aftmast (with main sail) cat with some nice renderings. He was also using a center "spine" hull of sorts with a kick up centerboard. I think its a great idea. No slot drag with the "spine" hull out of the water, but the board can still kick up and you can move the CLR back. Yeah we will all agree there must be more drag due to the surface peircing nature of it, but also remember one large foil has less tip drag than 2 small ones. I think performance will be good and the other benefits are well worth it. Also if the design has this spline anyway it could actually weigh less without the wasted board length and dagger cases?
 
Now that brings back memories. Having cut my teeth (so to speak) on catamarans with centreline centreboards , i'm not sure they were dumped because of " end -plate issues". Just my opinion , mind you.:p

The Arafura Cadet and Arrow were probably the last designs with them?

The Quick Cat was a beast.
Don't recall any of these?

I was a significant dealer/distributor for Stiletto cats, and that was my primary exposure. Yes they did have 'end plate' issues at the water's surface, and they did have a rather unsophisticated support structure.

There was a lot of structure and weight tied up in the large center board.IMO
I'm assuming the center board you are referencing was brought all the way up thru the central deck?....that's what made it so large and heavy?

There was also a lot of pain and blood-shed involved in negotiating a route around the structure during tacks.
I'm again assuming that was a deck side issue with that centerboard?
 
I'm sure in this thread a startup designer posted about his 35ish aftmast (with main sail) cat with some nice renderings. He was also using a center "spine" hull of sorts with a kick up centerboard. I think its a great idea. No slot drag with the "spine" hull out of the water, but the board can still kick up and you can move the CLR back. Yeah we will all agree there must be more drag due to the surface peircing nature of it, but also remember one large foil has less tip drag than 2 small ones. I think performance will be good and the other benefits are well worth it. Also if the design has this spline anyway it could actually weigh less without the wasted board length and dagger cases?
Don't recall that 35ish vessel you noted?

The subject thread where I first proposed this idea was never responded to,...that was way back in 2003. I'll repeat it here and underline a few of the positive attributes I forsee.

Alternative Centerboards & Sail Rigs Aboard Big Cat

BE: I've posted here a copy of a letter I recently wrote to Mr. Rodwell as it touches on some thoughts about centerboards and alternative sailing rigs that might be interesting to some multihull sailors on this forum. For reference B Rodwell had originally posted a message under the subject heading "sock it to me"

One item of your thought processes caught my attention in particular; your desire for a single centerboard, and real shallow draft capabilities. I'll certainly second that motion, that shallow draft idea. One of the greatest attributes of multihulls is their capability to really go exploring ALL the water areas including those tributaries, lagoons, reefs, etc. That's why I had kick-up CB's in each hull of my design.

BUT, what you may not have noticed was my alternative to the CB's in each hull. Look at the attached drawing, (or the very bottom profile drwg that denotes "asymmetrical CB's, nacelle mounted". First, imagine a flat plate, on edge, mounted down the centerline on the underside of the bridge deck. This flat plate will act as a rib to strengthen the fore-to-aft rigidity of the vessel, a somewhat weaker characteristic in a catamaran structure vs. a keeled monohull. If a tow bundle (rope, etc) of carbon fiber (kevlar, PBO, etc) was laid along the bottom edge of this flat plate, the rigidity could be even greater (sort of akin to a bottom truss structure, or a flange of an 'I' beam). Now on either side of this flat plate I propose to mount a centerboard, not a single, symmetrical one, but rather two asymmetrical ones; sort of like a single board split in half. The flat sides of these asymmetric boards would fit up against the flat plate nacelle, and rotate on oversize (possibly 1-foot) diameter bearings. The flat fit & big bearings would together supply a great big surface for the large bending moments to bear against. Only one board at a time would be lowered. In fact the two could be linked together such that the act of lifting one automatically lowers (& powers) the other down. And they both could be rigged to 'kick up' upon hitting any solid object and/or for shallow cruising. The control lines (cables) could be routed right up to the cabin top and back to the cockpit.

There are several advantages to an asymmetrical shaped centerboard. First, it requires less total board area to develop a leeway reducing force....so the board size is reduced. Secondly, since it is asymmetrical, it does not require an angle of attack (does not require the boat itself to be sailed at a skewed angle) to develop the 'board's lift' (leeway reducing force). This actually
may result in the vessel making less leeway. Plus the drag forces associated with the CB lift forces are on the centerline of the vessel, rather than offin one hull that produces turning moments about the center of the vessel.

This centerline mounting may also improve the tacking capabilities of the vessel as it allows the 'clean' hulls to slip a little while pivoting about the central board.

The front of this nacelle/plate could be configured to act as a wave splitter to actually attack, up front, the formation of those peaky waves under the tramp areas that eventually slap at our bridge deck underside. We kind of slice those waves down a bit. A lightweight fairing might also be added to this 'flat plate nacelle' so it appears outwardly much more esthetically pleasing, as well as more curvature to shed those peaky waves.

And how about the maintenance factor, particularly in remote cruising areas. No need to haul-out the vessel to repair kick-up CB problems, or even bottom painting problems. Everything, including the cables, bearings, and boards is all above the load waterline. The initial building cost should be less by eliminating the trunks in two hulls, and the watertight integrity is much
better.
The twin boards might have to be made a little bit longer as they operate with a 'free-surface' end, but then they are asymmetric so they can be correspondingly shorter. I would further suggest that surplus helicopter blades are prime candidate sources for both CB blades and rudder blades....high tech, extremely strong carbon fiber fabrications that have a
prescribed limited life span aboard aircraft, but are perfectly happy for our use.

For rudder designs I would give a cassette system such as the Vara rudder at <www.socasailboats.com/> a close look in lieu of a kick-up system. Or maybe even Tony Smith's Gemini cat system. Kick-up rudder systems can get pretty complicated, plus they usually don't steer the boat very well at all when they are kicked up in shallow water. (LOTS of weather helm).

If I were looking to use my auxiliary engine in a strictly aux manner, rather than in a motor/sailing demand, I would seriously consider a single engine installation. This engine would be conveniently mounted in an enclosure on the cockpit deck and would belt drive a steerable out-drive leg that would be incorporated into the rear portion of the central nacelle structure. Maybe this rear nacelle might appear as on "Earthling's pod" (attached photo and/or <www.earthling.co.nz/boating.htm>). This saves the cost and weight of the second engine, trans, shafting, prop, etc, and opens up the rears of the hulls
for a nice master bath, or whatever.

And a final little note for now, I think you would find that most all
textbooks, etc, would implicate the traditional mainsail as the primary leeway inducer. I believe my mainsail-less rig will thus require less leeway combating forces from my single CB arrangement.
Back a few years ago I took some of these same ideas and incorporated them into my Dynarig cat idea
 

Attachments

  • Wave-splitting Nacelle, facing left.jpg
    Wave-splitting Nacelle, facing left.jpg
    63.6 KB · Views: 1,557
  • Section_6_Galley_Dinette_Centerboard_1000.gif
    Section_6_Galley_Dinette_Centerboard_1000.gif
    57.5 KB · Views: 558
  • Main_BulkHead_and_Constructioin_Specs_1000.gif
    Main_BulkHead_and_Constructioin_Specs_1000.gif
    84.2 KB · Views: 555
Don't recall any of these?

I was a significant dealer/distributor for Stiletto cats, and that was my primary exposure. Yes they did have 'end plate' issues at the water's surface, and they did have a rather unsophisticated support structure.


?

I was merely reminiscing out loud . this was not meant to end up as another boat-design captain keyboard pissing competition.

Google is your friend re boat specifics.

All boats mentioned predate your Stiletto thingy.

Cunninghams Quick Cat predates by about 1/4 of a century.

Being one design classes there was a lot of comparative information available between similar but different boat types.

From memory the Arrow predated the Paper Tiger, both 14 feet LOA. The Arrow had the centreline centreboard. The Paper Tiger had twin through hull boards. The arrow had basic flat bottomed hull forms.

Both sailed in large fleets. the ARROW WAS FASTER around a course. It had a lower VYC yardstick. Now the Arrow has been much updated over the years and has only got faster. There was other differences in the designs with the PT having a more modern Una rig, better chine hull shape, but no trapeze for instance.

Now before you start bashing away on your keyboard re this is not definitive data to say single centreline boards are better. We all know that. I suspect in the real world over a range of conditions its Bloody hard to tell.

Hence CT249 ended his post with "I think"

There is probably no better way to test ideas than in large one design fleets over time.

Who would have thought a boomless main could get a start in the "A" s. Or boomless and no traveller. Now that will get some panty wadding issues happening:D
 
Who would have thought a boomless main could get a start in the "A" s. Or boomless and no traveller. Now that will get some panty wadding issues happening:D
Boomless,...Stiletto 30 then Stiletto 23. I experienced it, then adopted it for our Firefly trimaran I suggested it to new owner of NACRA at the time, and their next model came out boomless.

Mainsail-less...that's me :D:D;)
 
another case for Mainsail-less

Just happened across this interesting little posting about trouble getting that traditional mainsail down in storm conditions.

Jeannius said:
I've been in 50 knot plus winds on a few occasions in my Privilege 435. Once in the middle of an ocean crossing and a couple of times close to land. Middle of the ocean was easy to deal with... all sails down in advance (big winds don't just come out of nowhere so there is time to prepare), started motors and headed downwind. I've never seen breaking waves out in really deep water.


Close to land in the BVI was much harder... there'd been steady 25-30 knot winds so I was reefed down appropriately for those conditions. Then about a mile away upwind and just in the lee of Salt Island the sea turned white and within a few seconds I had 55 knots with reefed main and genoa still set. I immediately turned downwind - mistake, should have turned into the wind! - started the motors and got the genoa rolled away but the main wouldn't come down. So there I was headed towards Tortola just a mile or two away doing around 12-14 knots so I was going to arrive pretty quickly. Fortunately there was a brief 'lull' when the wind dropped to 35-40 knots and as soon as that happened I turned dead upwind and the main came down. The wind then got up to 50-55 again but I was able to just sit head to wind until it dropped again to 25-30 when we continued on our way.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/catamarans-in-50kt-winds-170475.html#post2180129
 
Main Sail Less

I was just going back thru a portion of this subject thread and ran across this older posting (#46) I had forgotten about. I thought it desired repeating since I have tried to emphasize that my pursuit of this rig design is centered around the aging cruiser.

....interesting letter I received last summer, '07


Hi Brian, my name is alan smith...I am looking at an Ian Farrier Design 39 foot trimaran....I have enough sailing experience both in chartering and racing to know that what you have postulated in your article on aftmast propulsion to be exactly what I have been looking for....I am 56 years old and with that comes loss of muscle mass and flexability.

I want to world cruise and my biggest seagoing dilema is the mainsail
. As you mentioned the full batten mainsail is a beast. i had considered putting a power wench near the mainsail for aid in lifting it....but when you are at sea and singlehanding...it can be so frightening ...when in the middle of the night
some weather blows up quickly...your thoughts are muddled and you are trying to figure out your best course of survival...ha ha ...even on a rotating mast getting the slides to cooperate, the battens not to get hung up on the jiffy sail lines is no laughing matter.

Recently while on a 41 foot Lagoon cat in Greece we went from 15 knot breeze to over 40 knots in a channel between islands. Now mind you, there were 8 of us board this monster of a boat. It took one steering into the wind, one on the mainsheet traveller, one on the mainsheet rope clutch and wench, two handling the mainsail...clawing like hell to pull the slides down, and one lookout watching the battens didn't get hung up in the jiffy lines...which happened several times...up a little...no, down a little,,,,no damnit...up a little you idiots...and so it went.

With your idea we would have just furled the jenny half way and struck the mizzen and we would have been fine...It is a brilliant idea. Just fricking marvelous brilliant....

Now I have a few questions for you....Sailing downwind....dead downwind....of course a spinnaker is completely out of the question for a singlhander...too bloody much work and nervous work at that..Ian Farrier has a good set up with the screecher on a bow pole...you can wing and wing the main and screecher if you get lucky with course desired and wind direction...but I am interested in what you would recommend for a 3/4 wind or full aft wind?

Is the narrow hull of a trimaran going to present in back stay problems for the forward leaning mast? Does the mizzen need some sort of boom? What percentage decrease in mast height will effect the same capacity of sail area with the 3 sails versus two sails of a bermuda rig....

Thank you Brian....I am hoping that you will take a few minutes to answer my questions...it is so refreshing for me to have found this article....your idea hit home like the truth of god...ha ha ...well, fair winds to you...alan smith
 
Another quote from that other forum:
BigBeakie said:
Sure, there's no doubt that there are those out there cruising, or want to be, who are not experienced sailors in adverse conditions. Maybe they've just been lucky enough to charter a cat for holiday times in good sailing conditions under non-challenging conditions.

But so be it. The point is, there is no question that a large, roachy, full batten mainsail can be a handful under certain wind and sea conditions. So this becomes a safety issue. Sailing off the breeze with the main up a non-rotating mast; wind comes up fast & strong; want to drop the main but it won't; wife is on-watch or you are sick.....stuff happens to the best of us.

We are just discussing that, aside from needing the highest efficiency working to windward (either racing or needing to work to close reaching to windward alot when cruising), maybe having a headsail driven boat rather than a mainsail driven boat is not a bad idea as a cruising boat. Physically easier hoisting and reefing, lower cost, not a huge drop in performance on most points of sail, more friendly to older sailors or newbies...etc. That's all.
 
...and another...

cwjohm said:
When I was located at the visitors wharf in Noumea there were 17 monos. 16 of them had in mast furling - the main was battonless. It occurred to me that clearly there is a distinct advantage for the real cruiser here otherwise why would it be this way.

They do not give a sh$t about pointing - they just want to be safe.

Cats are a little different due to balance, but having just journeyed from NC to Vanuatu at 30+ knots in 4 m seas and having to reef the main twice I would seriously consider an in mast furling system should one present itself for cats in the future.

Further, >90 AWS, the main does not add any significant benefit compared to any one of my three headsails.

It all depends on your priorities - getting speed out of your boat or travelling comfortably and safely.
 
ATTENTION Cruising Sailors, interesting website

Just today a gentleman who has corresponded with me for some time about my aftmast rig sent me a reference to this website.

http://www.rhbell.com/Simbo/

His introductory paragraph says a lot:
I have felt for a long time that the average cruising sailor is too often distracted by the needs of the racing fraternity and as a result, becomes drawn into systems and technical equipment that are not entirely appropriate. Whereas the racing fraternity is driven by performance, most cruising sailors are content in the knowledge that they can handle their boats in all likely conditions without putting themselves and family at risk.

For this one requires an easily managed, well thought through sail plan that can be adapted to meet changing weather conditions without fuss and if necessary, alone. Of course, the answer is totally subjective and like the raising and striking of ensigns, often stirs the emotions of even the most placid sailor into a frenzy of passion.

However, what works for me which may be of interest to those who are not set in their ways, is set out on this website.

Of course, many sailors will have developed their own ideas over the decades which they have found suits their particular needs best. My ideas have developed over 60 years of cruising the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts of' Europe plus 6 trans-Atlantic passages with a succession of bermuda sloops and stem from wanting ease of handling with minimum foredeck work.

Iain Simpson

Have a look at his site,...interesting...
 
I just returned from the BVI. Friends are skippers in the Voyage fleet and I got to tag along. With the all electric winches, mainsail handling is easy. With huge foresails, electric winches would be even more necessary. I saw many of the lagoon aft mast designs. I think they look good. Very slow, but that has everything to do with the weight of the boat and not the rig.

For anyone that actually likes sailing and wants to charter in the BVI, Voyage seem to be well in front when it comes to performance in a charter cat. My charter friends come from an actual sailing background (unlike many charter captains who have never sailed on anything other that fat charter cats). They say that Voyage boats are like night and day compared to the likes of lagoon etc. I was impressed. We sailed to windward by tacking, and were able to maintain speeds of 10.5K in the 480 on a reach.
 
BTW this little note on the cutter rig portion of that website i just posted

http://www.rhbell.com/Simbo/cutter-rig.html

VMG Headsail: However, on sailing the east coast of America we discovered that the winds are generally very much lighter which is why so many American yachts have huge headsails. So for our second season there we had a lightweight 165% headsail on a continuous self-furling line made. This is much along the lines of a Code Zero but it was specifically designed for upwind sailing and it has proved a resounding success. We use it in light airs and it is good for winds up to 15 knots across the deck before it has to be furled. However it can remain in place furled (it runs from the spinnaker halyard down to a shackle on the stemhead) as it is clear in front of the foresail, allowing us to sail using any of the other sail combinations with ease. Without any issues this sail is good for sailing between 40 degrees and 160 degrees off the wind (the latter with the mailsail furled away).
 
I repeat again....

"The points I was trying to make for my aft-mast rig with its big genoa is that I was trying to meet a big variety of conditions with a limited sail inventory (my 3 sails are the only ones I have onboard, and are set up to be reduced in size by roller furling, not hoisted or replaced by alternatives).

As such I wanted a good size genoa sail for those often encounter 5-15 knot winds that we would really like to sail in rather than turning on the engine(s). This size sail, in those conditions, should be relatively easy to handle, ...(and when out cruising I would NOT be looking at getting into tacking duals). I was seeking to get the best from this genoa sail by giving it the best help from the 'cutter jib' (mainstaysail as I refer to it), and providing for its best dumping traits as described by Tom.

I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 30 knot range.
 
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making any potentially dangerous or financial decision, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

  • Back
    Top