Aftmast rigs???

Re "I do have to admit I get a little tired of their arrogance".

Where is the evidence that racers are more arrogant than cruisers?* On this forum we see many claims that people only use certain rigs because they mindlessly follow the fashion set by racers - that's arguably a pretty arrogant claim. We've seen many claims (one of them in the OP's most recent post) that a racer is too blinded by conservatism to see the virtues of the alternative rigs - again that's a pretty arrogant claim.

Re "It's interesting to note, that before really good roller furling gear became available, cutters, ketches, and yawls were quite popular amongst the cruising crowd. I don't believe such were ever popular amongst the racers".

The cutter rig was the standard sailplan for inshore racers of 30-35 foot or more for many decades, although by the 1930s it was only used in the biggest classes. Schooners, cutters, ketches and yawls pretty much dominated in offshore racing's early years - look at legendary racers like Dorade, Stormy Weather, Nina, Jolie Briese, Solo, etc.

The cutter rig was used in Grand Prix offshore racing at times till the '70s, and of course boats like Stienlager II, NZI Endeavour, Cascade, La Poste, Kialoa III, Ondine II, Windward Passage, Pen Duick, Denali etc demonstrate that even 'conventional' ocean racers used ketch rigs up until the '90s.

Re "I can see doing this for a squall, that lasts for a few minutes. I suppose you ease the Boom Vang so the top of the sail twists off. But sailing like this all day?"

You don't need to ease the vang - plenty of fractional sloops will depower automatically because the leverage of the mainsail roach (and other things) automatically induces extra mast bend which flattens the mainsail and twists it.

Yep, you can sail like that all day.

Sure, the rig doesn't suit every person. No rig will. People who are exploring on land will use utterly diverse equipment, from a backpack and shoes, to a touring bicycle, a rented car or a motorhome. Why should we expect people who are exploring on the sea to all use the same sort of gear?

The issue some of us have is not with 'unconventional' rigs, but with the incorrect and exaggerated claims that are sometimes made in support of them and attacking other rigs.





* I'll also say that contrary to a recent post, many cruisers IME are good sailors, and some of them are extremely good sailors.

 

Arrogant

If you are going to continue to make postings here, please get your sources correct. I do NOT think that I ever made such claims in any of my recent postings.

 

Arrogant

Speaking of arrogant, perhaps some would like to look back at this posting #589 by RHouge who is responding to a accomplished cruising sailor's observations about his rig preferences. And Spiv has lots of cruising miles under his keel(s).

Posting #589

 

BTW, I don't see either of these gentlemen taking the time to dispute my backstay loading figures??....and I think they have both in the past alluded to them as one of the big negative features to my rig design

 

Another item that has occupied these 2 gentlemen has been the excessive drag my rig might experience.

I addressed some of those concerns here in
Posting #407

...note the mast drag solution...not so difficult.

 

Time spent 'on the wind'

Interesting observations from another cruising sailor about the time he actually spent sailing to windward.

Posting #400

 

Probably a good time to repost this pic,....an overlaid dwg of a sloop rigged 65'cat and my aft-mast rig on a 65' cat,....same sail area on both.

Which one would you suppose might be easier to handle?

(I presented this back in posting #98)

 

Earlier you'd written;

"Sailors are a very conservative bunch that cling to tradition."

"new ideas are hard to sell conservative sailors."

That mast aft rigs were "BOLD experimentation...something (other sailors are) they're affraid of...too conservative"

"My prior 'mast-aft ketch' had elicited notable resistance among members of the conservative sailing community"

and there's more along that theme.

A page back, you claimed a poster didn't know enough to contribute and implied they knew nothing about tacking downwind. Seen in the context of the earlier post in that particular exchange, it looks as if you were insinuating that the poster was blinded by conservatism.


BTW re I've already made it clear (post 616, last line) that IMHO some cruisers are very good sailors so I can't be said to be behaving with arrogance towards them.

 

The fractional sloop; it's easy to tack and easy to depower; no big headies flapping around, no metres of sheet to wind in every tack or gybe. The experienced multihull cruisers I know best have a rather unusual fractional sloop and it works very, very well. But that's not saying that it's the best rig, or boat, for everyone. Hohn Hitch has a rig that relies on big headsails and rollers, and he's very experienced. Once again, I'm not saying that your concept is useless since different people like different ways of sailing; the most experienced cruisers I've met have had boats as diverse as a stripped-out fractional IOR lightweight, a timber heavy-displacement Finnisterre type, a Tahiti ketch, and various types of multi.

In that context, every rig has its place; I'm merely taking issue with some of the claims made for the rig and its lack of acceptance.

Re your post about cruisers not going upwind - not everyone spends almost all of their time going downwind when cruising. People who live in some places have to go upwind a lot to get to their favourite cruising grounds. Friends of mine recently did about 15 days straight upwind, and since they have something like 180,000 or 250,000 nm under their belt it's not as if they are tyros. It's just that not everyone can sail downwind all of the time.

 

Guilty as charged

 

I have only read this page, not the whole thread

If you only sail downwind you will eventually hit a lee shore - then what?

The worst two catamarans I have ever sailed where a Prout Snowgoose and a Dean Cat 36. Both have huge genoas and small mainsails. Tacking them was very hard work, and the sail would flap horribly when offwind as twist control was impossible

A genoa is a point load, a mainsail a uniformly distributed load. So a genoa generates bigger compression loads than does a mainsail - so the mast has to be bigger and heavier to compensate

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

Hi Richard,
If that is the only portion of this subject thread that you have read, then I might suggest a few other selections for you to review. It is a rather lengthy subject thread with many arguments pro and con....and BTW we are NOT proposing to only sail downwind. In fact I would really relish the idea of sailing to windward against another good boat. **(but first I would....see below)

Here is a selection of my arguments for....

Aft Mast Origination & Justification

Sails in Combinations

Chris White on Ketch Rigged Multi

Brian Toss on Mizzens


Retired, Handicapped Fellows Boat

Lower Aspect Ratio, (built in reef)

Boomless Rigs & Stiletto Cats




** (but first I would 'blunt' the sharp leading edges of my two headsails with round-sectioned furling gear , and I would add a simple plastic trailing edge device to my bare mast)

 

It has probably been posted here before, but here is a very nicely working small daysailer with an aftmast rig. I have to say, the performance is nothing to laugh about either.

 

I am nearing completion of rerigging my 65ft trimaran to paraw style.

I didn't know until looking into the paraw that James Wharram had given up on the task I was attempting. .namely a Polynesian style crab claw footed in front of the mast. Wharram calls his paraw rigs Tiki.

I really don't want people to point at my failures with this and conclude it is not possible or safe. There are a few lessons I want to convey to the group.

#1 Yes indeed many big multihull cruisers are not happy with the Bermuda. I met several trans Pacific cruisers that wished they had a less difficult rig.

#2 The first Tiki I saw was in Malaysia and the owners loved it. The mast looked like it was about half the size needed. Well, given December events so does mine and I have moved it midship. One very nice $50 gold bullion coin found below the original maststep. Nice. One crew member with light fingers and no proof, not nice.

#3 About December 2014. Trimarans stumble in the wrong sea state. Instead of simply rocking back and forth, waves will pick up two hulls and suddenly one ama is high and dry. Then less than a second later the waves move and down it crashes and is slammed side on. On a 65ft trimaran like mine that slam isn't uniform and within about 1/10th a second you feel bam BAM shuttering through the hulls. Waves need only be 2 meters. Larger waves no problem.

#4 There is zero question it was g-forces owing to these sudden decelerations that the two ANSI 54-3 shattered cutting my line. I was flying zero canvas.

#5 The shock absorbing system I employed was only on the forward leading side stays. I would also employ shock absorption on the back if I were to start again.

#6 Learning lessons on such a large rig takes a long time with a limited budget.

 

#7 A lingering question is whether the near wire clips were too close to the strain insulator. This could have prestressed it and failure occurred at less than rated 22,000 lbs. I still have not found any references to how to properly space wire clips away from strain insulators. Many vessels have these especially if using a SSB.

#8 I can report that two days after I had the revised mast up a nice typhoon blew by. The mast felt better. As indeed it should. However, my aft-mast take 2 also felt fine.

#9 I don't want the group to lose what I consider to be ground breaking innovation. With my second take, just one rigging line was load balanced between 4 chainplates. In fact it was the same line. It looks odd but worked very well.

#10 If the forecast is small craft advisories and winds 30-40 knots, stay in port no matter what a jerk on your vessel demands. Toss him in the water. Not your rig.

#11 When in a shipping lane, 30-40 knot winds, demasted, night, with an approaching large commercial vessel from behind, keep an eye on your crew while tending the tangle of thousands upon thousands of $ of wreckage you spent months installing. You never know if that same guy decides it is a good idea to dismantle all your communication equipment.

Now onto how to work with a single piece of bamboo 70 feet long and prevent it from breaking.

It is More Fun in the Philippines!