Aftmast rigs???

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by jdardozzi, May 28, 2002.

  1. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Eh, it was you experts who built the titanic amd us amateurs that built the arc. Who's went under :D

    There are some thing imo that I don't like on some of the rigs I see, but when my own gets to float I'll be able to comment on that.
     
  2. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    I did not build the Titanic!

    I just mind some people making conclusions and giving 'valuable advice' without seeing the subject of discussion, and without proper knowledge as well :) We have seen a lot of concepts from them and none of those have ever been built or even engineered; but they are always ready to criticize others.
     
  3. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    First off let me say that that Philip Maise approached me about his wanting to look at the aftmast option for rerigging the previously de-masted vessel that he had recently purchased. He supplied me with some very preliminary dimensions of where some structural members were located, but no drawings or a sketch of what he had in mind. Before I could even find time to look these dimensions over, he sent me a note that he had elected to go with a crab claw arrangement, and announced that on this forum at posting #199 . So please don’t infer that I misled this gentleman into his choices. I think he will confirm these facts.

    With reference to “so much nonsense published and presented as fact”, I might remind you this is a forum discussion, not a formal technical paper that is being published. It contains both positive and negative viewpoints, and well as supporting documentation and by way of reference to other related forum discussions.

    Over the years I’ve gotten hundreds of inquires about this aftmast setup. I have turned many of them down right at the beginning, when I recognize it is not the solution for them. I have forewarned others that this is still untried technology, and that there are extra rig loads that must be accounted for. This may not be a rig you want to slap onto an existing vessel without properly determining that the vessel itself will accept the loading points. I am truly concerned that someone does not waste their money on this technology without fully realizing that they are on the cutting edge.

    So Paul I might suggest that you stay off the Group P bench ….that’s ‘P’ for Progressive.
    You certainly wouldn’t be a person who might enjoy the huge international Oshkosh Air Show…particularly the experimental section:
    The Experimental Aircraft Association's Fly-In Convention, now known as EAA AirVenture Oshkosh

    These guys not only EXPERIMENT, they do it with objects that fly up in the air…less forgiving than sailing across the water :!:;)
     
  4. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Bolger Mast aft

    I was looking for another image, and I happened upon this one I had forgotten about. Thought it might be time to post it before I forgot about it again.

    From most of which I have read Bolger found this rig to be superior in its sailing performance, BUT it was hard to sail in non-steadystate conditions due to having to keep that 'very fine' leading edge of the headsail properly oriented.

    I believe Tom Speer did a very fine analysis of this problem with fine leading edges over in the SAIL AERODYNAMICS subject thread...don't know the exact posting # at this time?
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Hilarious!
     
  6. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    So 'Relentless' was a failure, some of us predicted that for several reasons already outlined.

    Bold experiments get good press but the vessels are still subject to some immutable principles. Ignoring those principles because you are ignorant of them is not progressive, but it helps the 'innovator' to imagine that their dream design is being unfairly criticised.

    I think you should be concentrating on is the compromises and their tradeoffs, rather than imagining it's all roses and the detractors are just luddites.
     
  7. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Well I'm not so sure they were failures. There were two vessels built, one tall rig version, one short. Orca was the short rig version.

    The owner of Orca wrote this over on the other subject thread:
    "Best wishes for the new year. I have made some contact with - of all things - Mr Fred Greenway's former bus driver. This man knew Fred and his wife very well and as he was a longtime tug boat operator he too knows boats.
    We will be meeting soon I think to discuss what he knows of Fred and Orca, but he already been stated that Orca went around the Horn from West to East and came back through the canal. Heresay at this pt. More as we get it."

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/wishbone-sailing-rig-1999-7.html#post247796

    Fred Greenway was the designer of these two vessels
     
  8. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I'm sorry you have to be so combative in your postings on this particular subject thread. It would be much nicer if you offered your criticisms in a more civil manner

    That said I must apologize to you and the builder for an error I made in reviewing this design. The primary problem arose as a result of an optical illusion that appeared to me when I viewed that first photo I posted at #254
    1) I did not detect any backstay(s) running from that lower forestay attachment point. This was further reinforced in my mind by the lack of any lower ones on the profile dwg that's posted there.
    2) When I looked at the photo I mistakenly identified the aft backstay jumper strut to be the raked spreader on the near side of the mast. In other words I thought the builder had possible modified the rig shown in the dwg such that there was now NO aft jumper strut for a backstay from the masthead to passover....thus no masthead backstay.

    I thought maybe the designer or builder had decided there was no reason for a mizzen sail, and thus no reason for that backstay. Instead they had decided that the raked-back spreaders would substitute for the masthead backstay...ala many 3 pt catamaran rigs, or a B&R rig.

    Now that I look much closer at the photo I can detect the aft backstay from the masthead, and the two lower backstays. I feel much more positive about your rendition now, and in fact made a comment to the builder that I thought the overall appearance was very satisfactory.
     
  9. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    I doubt the aft mast sail will be the perfect one. No other sail can claim that either, it sounds like some of you are close though :D

    The first week I was on this forum I was told boats are one big compromise from start to end. Seems sails are the same compromising disaster.

    Is a sail only successful when it's the fastest ? Then I assume some of you must be seriously into racing.

    Fortunately for me I am not, and it's not important who is going to win the next whatever where ever that is going to be.

    For me this sail offers everything that none of the others sails could offer.

    Simplicity, if the one sail fills the boat goes. Some of you have so many by the time you are reefing I'll be there already. Some of you need a crew good grief.

    Easy and quick to reef, super for fishing.

    No clutter. I bet some of you don't know what all those ropes are for. I have two per sail.

    My experience with the small tri I used as an experiment to test the sail with was an ok one, although I'm not nearly as experienced as probably any of you, in my amateur experience it wasn't too bad compared to some other much better developed boats.

    And cheap ! If you know how stingy I am... I can maybe afford one too.

    For the life of me I don't know why any one would put this sail on a mono hull. I seriously doubt it can be successful but that's the amateur in me that doesn't see what professionals see. If you heel, how long is the sailing edge then ? Half ? And where is the second leading edge... on the lee side behind the boat?

    This is a multihul rig, it functions upright, but that's just my unprofessional opinion. I was on the tri fiddling with it when ahhhh so what the... It took me a while. If you sit behind it you will see it, and no it's not a jib.

    I haven't received any two cents yet - cannot get the next disaster done without it so come on guys, those two cents ! Lets prove this thing a failure once and for all.





    Do I get the feeling some of you are scared it may actually become successful ???
     
  10. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    I have a question.

    By having a boom in front of a sail, how many pointing degrees do you sacrifice in a close haul ?
     
  11. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Lets see, I may have to reorganize this material, and/or add to it, but here are a few reference documents for Bolger's Staysail Cat.
    ...and a letter he writes to a client about its potential
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    You just don't get it.
     
  13. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    Brian, You have posted pictures of my projects in different forums, with 'criticism' of what and how is done, without knowledge of particular project and boat. Every boat is a compromise of properties, and every project is compromise - of technical issues, budget, customer's wishes, builder's capabilities, designer's vision, regulatory requirements... So if You do not have knowledge of these components and inputs, what kind of useful critique can You provide? It is just annoying bla-bla-bla from Your side. If You can do better - do it and show to us! Nobody have ever seen any of Your concepts launched, but You feel Yourself in position to act as design expert - this is amazing behaviour!

    So now You are reviewing my designs... Do You really feel that You are qualified to do it? How one can 'review' the designs without seeing the boat or drawings? Your mentor's tone is irrelevant...

    Thanks Sir, now I feel highly honoured! :D

    That 40' boat is designed to become a powercat if sailing rig does not work. Take out the mast and add bimini to the flybridge - and it is a cool boat with potentially better resale value than 'mast in the ***' solution.
     
  14. ChiefOren
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    ChiefOren Junior Member

    Again, the reason for adopting an Aft mast rig is not to win races but more to the liking of long haul cruising. The ease of handling by single handed sailor, less rigging, etc etc. As Eiland has stated quite often, this rig may not achieve the best speed in light conditions, but who cares. If you wish to get somewhere fast, Motor!. If you aren't in a hurry, wait out the conditions. That is cruiser mentality, not racer mentality. What are your looking for in sailing? To beat the waves or to beat the other guy?
     

  15. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    Have You ever tried to tack boat with such rig, with 2 jibs, with long foot and huge overlap? Definitely the procedure is not for single handed sailor...
     
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