Aftmast rigs???

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by jdardozzi, May 28, 2002.

  1. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member

    Oh Boy ,you really enjoy putting things "out of context" don`t you ?

    The claim that yachting , on the whole , is 'too conservative' , is true.
    The reasons often have much to do with cost.
    Rating rules are also a major culprit.( bermudan rig ring a bell ?)

    Scared ? certainly ...much money at risk.

    Not insulting , but a reflection of the costs involved in yachting these days.
    Also factual.
    Brian told it as it is.
    No malice intended.
  2. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    It's possibly not out of context to object to yet another use of a rather old accusation about our fellow sailors. This criticism has been aired many, many times, but surely something that is so subjective and so much a matter of personal taste and circumstances as the type of sailboat one owns should not be a source of insult.

    What is so bad about objecting to the use of derogatory terms about the mainstream of our sport and what they happen to like?

    Who is the judge of whether their fellow sailors are too conservative, or not?

    In what other sport do so many people spend such vast sums on toys that become obsolete so quickly? If there aren't many other sports where so many people lose so much cash, by what yardstick are you judging sailors?

    Who can can claim to stand in a position of perfect objective truth and work out how conservative people should be with their very expensive toys?

    People like Larry Ellison, the co-founder of Skype, and many other leaders in other areas are quite happy sailing comparatively conventional boats - are they are scared of innovation too?

    Basically, what is so hard about respecting the sailors who actually get out there and go sailing, and the choices that they make? Exactly how does it hurt the sport if everyone gives respect? It certainly seems to hurt the sport when sailors start insulting their fellow sailors simply because they dare to have different tastes.

    Surely it would HELP with innovation if we took pains to understand why other sailors choose what they choose to sail, rather than simply throwing derogatory labels at them?

    PS - I'm not sure of the meaning of your reference to bermudan rigs and rating rules - rating rigs normally give a large benefit to gaff rigs, schooner rigs, ketches and yawls, rating them as much slower than bermudan sloops of similar area. And there's little evidence that the few boats that are not bermudan sloops are disadvantaged under IRC, for example.
  3. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Conservative Label

    A long time ago I was watching a morning show interview with the CEO of Rubbermaid Corp. On a table in front of the two gentleman there was a whole display of ALL sorts of kitchen items that Rubbermaid producted....and there were many different colors to these plastic items.

    The interviewer ask, 'why so many colors' and 'what are the most popular colors'??
    The CEO responded that 'in America that would be white, black, and beige'.

    Interviewer: Then who buys all the other colors?
    CEO: The rest of the world, particularly Europe.

    My deduction and that of the two gentleman, 'America is a more conservative market than many believe'. Thats not a bad thing, it just a fact.
    Another incident I might relay. I was exhibiting our new 37' Louisiane catamaran at the Annapolis boat show. It was a very crowded weekend day, when I spotted a gentleman in the crowd that I knew owned a hi-tech motorcycle shop in a town nearby. I was almost surprised to see him at an ALL SAILBOAT show as opposed to the up coming powerboat show. I pulled him aside an ask what he thought of this BIG crowd of people out to see a sailboat show??

    His response was quite interesting from a retailer's perspective. He said, "I think what you have here is a bunch of Volvo buyers. They probably take forever to pick out a product, and they research it to death."

    That fit so well with what a boat salesman once told me, "it is so much easier to sell the powerboat guy...generally they want to know how much HP it has and what colors does it come in" :rolleyes:

    American sailors are a conservative market in my opinion. I learned it the hard way...trying to sell them multihull sailboats for years
  4. pbmaise
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    I'm pleased to announce to this forum that I am about to relaunch my 65ft trimaran with an aft-mast mounted double semi crab-claw rig I have designed.

    I will be sailing it back from Thailand to my home in Hawaii. Placing the mast behind the crab claw instead of infront or midway appears to be unique. Additionally, the fact I am flying two crab claws one above the other seems to be unique too.

    I am announcing this design to this board as my sea-trials will be rather public and I want to time stamp this innovative design before someone else claims it. The double one over the other crab claw isn't a necessary part of the design.

    This design evolved after careful consideration of the failure points of a typical triangular supported Bermuda rig. I found over 100 places a single failure could bring the entire mast down.

    Disclaimer. Please do not consider my posting as any endorsement or permission to use the design on your own boat. I did not move my mast 20 feet backwards on my boat without first examining the structural box beam that ran across the entire rear of my trimaran and added reinforcement.

    Assist requests:
    1. I will need to submit a revised rigging plan to US Coastguard and am looking for a naval engineeer that can do this.

    2. I am looking for any documnentation of structural strength of wooden and composite core spars that are coated in fiber glass and hi-tech fibers.

    Thanks Phil

    Sea Trails are scheduled for Sep 2010. I"m hoping for decent windward ability and to require a downwind sail since I have elimianated the upper boom of the crab claw and used a bolt rope woven into the sail instead.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
  5. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Hi pbmaise,

    Don't worry, we won't ask permission to put aft masts up :D

    How about some pictures, and it would really be interesting to see how the rig did sailing back. Wish I could be there to do the trip with you... but Frosty is there in Thailand and all so... :D (just kiddin) but seriously, it would be fantastic if you can post some pictures.

    Good luck with the trip !
  6. ChiefOren
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    ChiefOren Junior Member

    As an Israeli, I'll be the first to plagerize (Ha), so would like some pictures of course. Other than that, I still plan to use an A-frame mast with 2 Gibs and a third storm sail. The two gibs with Roller Furling, and the Stay Sail with permenant cleats.
  7. ChiefOren
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    ChiefOren Junior Member

    Sorry about the spelling. Been in Israel for 38 years. Must be losing my English.
  8. pbmaise
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    Pictures of new design have to wait till it is put together

    Sorry for enticing you with a new design and not producing pictures, however, everything is still in parts. The sail is currently on the floor of the Rolly Tasker loft and being sewn this week.

    I will share with you the results and pictures as the parts as together. Good or bad.

    Some issues are expected to be interesting.

    I am not expecting to get the best possible performance from the sails as I am starting with a handicap. I will be traveling very loaded with about an extra 3 tons of cargo and fuel. About 500 lbs of cargo are old lines from the previous rig that I will be giving away to Pacific islanders on remote atolls.

    Phil Maise
  9. bearflag
    Joined: May 2010
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    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    Pictures and/or sketches would be great. I am having a hard time envisioning what you are talking about :)
  10. pbmaise
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Location: Cebu the Philippines

    pbmaise Senior Member

    Updated Photos of Aft-Mast Rig and Crab Claw Sails

    Well for your viewing pleasure here is my aft-mast rig and her crab claw sails in production.

    I'm currently back in Thailand and making some minor modifications to the rigging after the first sea trials. On the way from Thailand to Singapore I found the Dyneema lines needed to be pounded in some good heavy seas to get the stretch out of them. Once I had them stretched out they performed better.

    Back in Thailand, I had the machine shop reinforce some thimbles. The cheap thimbles they sell simply get crushed under the huge loads of the Dyneema lines.

    As of date, I have yet to remove the redundant back stays. I admit to having just tons of lines aboard and just feel more comfortable knowing there is a backup in place.

    Regarding the performance of the sails. I have yet to try them out. The main reason for this is I realized, after experiencing the stretch in the rigging lines, that I would get the same stretch in the main bolt rope. Remember, I'm using the main bolt rope as a substitute for the forestay. Thus the bolt rope will have a high load. I'm changing to termination of the bolt rope at the head and leaving the foot loose so I can take up slack.

    Philip Maise

    Attached Files:

  11. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Awesome !

    But where's the sailing pics !!!!!

    Will you post more pictures of the boat too please.
  12. yipster
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    yipster designer

    looking fwd at a daring project :cool:
  13. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    1 person likes this.
  14. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    The pdf confirms what I experienced with my little tri. I will read the document in more detail later tonight, but I'm impressed.

    On a cat you can have two free standing masts - and have a larger sail area that way without the very tall masts problems.

    Couple of other tricks I picked up as well but they will have to wait untill I do mine... one day in the far future. Or it feels that way :eek:

  15. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    I'm actually surprised the double jib without overlap didn't outperform the others. You have two leading edges which is supposed to be making more foreward vacuum than the single sail. In theory anyway.
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