Affordable seaworthy cruiser

You missed the point ! Religious interpretation varies through time as beliefs become inconvenient they get re-interpreted. That's whats happening to the Ark myth currently, wood is unsuitable for such a large vessel for various reasons, so now it has bronze components. The tail ( current belief) shapes the interpretation of the dog it wags.

If I show you the dimensions are the least favorable for a dumb barge in heavy seas you'll simply say the dimensions only apply to part of the vessel and they are different at the waterline or something else, it's called rationalisation.

That's fine, it's up to you what you believe but you should see that your design paradigm ( scripture based boat design) is not sensible because belief is a shifting sand of interpretaion that suits the present, and it's simply altered when it becomes too silly to perpetuate it.

 

Mike,

You've made your point, besides the three numbers I like to use, Scripture says very little regarding boat design. Concerning other matters upon which we disagree, two years of this tread has been enough to present arguements and opposing views, if you want to keep discussing those issues we can do it through PM. It feels like I've been doing mental kungfu trying to swat you guys away while at the same time struggling to learn.

 

The trouble is that you can't help proselytising . So if you make silly statements don't expect them to go unchallenged. I came in on this:

And that quote is about as uninformed as it gets.

 

WHAT!?!? GARBAGE?!?! I am truly shocked and deeply offended, I think I'll go eat worms.

Looking at your construction photo....what's up with only one screw per plank? You must have a lot of Faith in Glue. I don't know how many times I've heard that old saying about the glue being stronger than the wood because there are wood fibers still stuck to the broken side of the glue line, but it seems odd that the break always happens right next to the glue line. I imagine you're using epoxy and relying on its supposed 'gap filling' qualities, because one screw per plank isn't going to pull the planking close enough for a proper glue joint. You're not using Gorilla Glue, are you?

You talk about

and

. Along with the blurb about the wind vane on the Ark always keeping it pointed into the waves, I think you imagine you will always take waves straight on. If you do that, your design has no longitudinal strength, and if you bridge waves your boat will buckle in the middle as have numerous ships at sea. If you get sideways, in the trough of the waves, you'll wish you had a rounded bottom, as your flat bottom and straight sides will have no choice but to follow the tilt of everything, it won't be able to roll a little and stay upright on the face of a wave. But wishing and praying won't help you at all as you get slammed from one side of the boat to the other, coated in puke.

What makes you think adding stuff between the frames on the inside of the boat will give you longitudinal or any other type of strength?

If you keep posting your religious BS, your thread will probably be closed down by the MODERATOR. It doesn't matter to me if it is, but if you want to keep posting that banal tripe, that's fine with me.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]The doctrine that future happiness depends upon belief is monstrous. It is the infamy of infamies. The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance, called "faith." What man, who ever thinks, can believe that blood can appease God? And yet, our entire system of religion is based upon that belief. The Jews pacified Jehovah with the blood of animals, and according to the Christian system, the blood of Jesus softened the heart of God a little, and rendered possible the salvation of a fortunate few. It is hard to conceive how the human mind can give assent to such terrible ideas, or how any sane man can read the Bible and still believe in the doctrine of inspiration.
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]-- Robert Green Ingersoll, The Gods

[/SIZE][/FONT]“Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions god’s infinite love.”
― Bill Hicks

“Reason is the Devil’s greatest *****; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious *****; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed *****; ***** eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom… Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”
—Martin Luther, Works, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148.


“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but—more frequently than not—struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
—Martin Luther, Table Talks in 1569.

 

Really? I scrambled through the 1st 9 pages. Picked a few posts you ignored fully or 90%. Go read them again.


http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-2.html#post385655
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980.html#post385411
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-4.html#post386213
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-5.html#post386457
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-6.html#post386714
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-7.html#post387086



http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-9.html#post388769
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/affordable-seaworthy-cruiser-33980-9.html#post388821

You have been told numerous times that your process is backwards - not your proportions you are in love with. And your skill of making statements out of nowhere sound like they were facts can be seen on those first few pages too.

Exercise some self criticism and honest evaluation - its healthy. And no - none of this has to do with your basic premise or faith based perspective. Ignoring good advise by people who know better than you is dumb no matter what philosophy you subscribe to.

 

Is it just me or do those hullsides look a bit flimsy?

Might you possibly be tempted to add a second layer of planking at 45 degrees to the first layer and then maybe a layer of plywood over that? The plywood would give a smooth surface and make painting easier. (then again you might not do that as Noah did not use plywood)

I saw a boat being built at Port Albert in Victoria Australia, The builder was attaching the planks to the frames with big strong bolts (coach screws), could well have been 3/8 coach screws or bigger (I was a fair way away so could not tell).

Having an extra layer of wood (diagonal) would allow for many many more scews to be put into the frames and greatly increase the hull strength. By the way what size screws are you using? On my first little boat I tried glueing frames to plywood, had some issues, so reinforced the epoxy with stainless steel screws (and this was a very very small boat)

What is the thickness of those planking timbers, looks like 19mm?

Having the boat a fraction stronger dont think would be a waste of time, better to be safe than sorry

 

Goodwilltoal

assume you have some spare time until the weather improves and you can return to building. There is a good book that I would recommend, deals with little things like hatches, beams, ventilation, lockers engines, planking, framing just to name a little and much much more.

Its called "boatbuilding. A complete handbook of wooden boat construction" - author is Chapelle. I know there are heaps and heaps of other books, (and maybe others will recommend them,,, but I ask that they dont)... seriously, would suggest reading Chapelle's book. It is an absolute classic and packed with information. Was printed in 1941. I would put this book above any other as a book most applicable to your project.

You will learn a massive amount from that book. If you were in the same town I would drop off my copy so you could read it for awhile (but your on the other side of the world)

 

Greetings,

Peter,

Thanks for the thoughtful remarks. The screws are 1 5/8" galvanized and will seriously consider adding more. The stips you see in metric would amount to 17.4mm x 76mm. Did mention in previous posts of adding two more 1/2" x 1 1/2" layers of strips diagonally plus fabric for abrasion.

The book I have used is Reuel Parker's "Cold-molded boatbuilding". Have heard of Chapelle's book but thought it was more related to oldtime plank & frame so never pursued to acquire it although now I will look more into it, especially interested in engines and ventilation. Reuel mentions not crossing fasteners into more than two layers so was going to use staples and glue to attach diagonal strips.

Will be back

 

Mike Johns,

Stand by quote at post 1086 and use "Lifeboat Carlot" on page 67 as an example. You never brought forth evidence to the contrary, you did attack religion, then used philosophy trying to justify your beliefs but, never addressed the concept. Seagoing ships and large yachts were money is not an issue all tend to get closer to Ark proportions.

Engineers spend lots of effort to work out longitudinal strengths when it would be easier the closer you get to a square cube shape (refering to overall extreme dimensions and not boat shape) . Never said using completely barge shape or all rectangles, many people misunderstood my statements about Bolger's AS works and thought I was advancing all square shape. When you look at his sharpies in cross sections they are boxes but, at side profiles and plan views they have rounded shapes.

You too Sam and Kerosene, be more specific with accusations, address the specific matters rather than averting and going into other subjects. I apologize and have confessed to misunderstanding questions at earlier posts. To reiterate, the only Scripture regarding boat design that I am aware of is L x W x D and that was only for a one time purpose. I said it was the best because of other seaworthy boats and ships using similar dimensions but, Scripture only mentions it one time concerning Noah's build and never says you have to use those dimensions.

 

forget it. I have put enough effort on this. You obviously didn't read the references in the 1st place so why would you now.

cheers. what a waste of an effort if you finish it.

 

Reuel's book is were I gained most knowledge of building a boat and used some of his ideas. Teresa (Exuma 44) 44' x 12' x 2'-8" - 22,000# is the one most referenced due to similiar sizes and there are many build photos of it in the book.

The boat is built monocque, with no frames other than build frames which after the hull is turned over, are removed (page 78 shows the frameless hull). Interior joinery and bulkheads are added later and stiffen the boat but, are added for other purposes other than structural. There is sheer clamp and chine log. The bottom is rounded shape constructed with long running 5/8" planks with two diagonal 3/8 plywood - two sides are constructed with two layers 3/8" plywood.

The bottom chine log and top sheer clamp are longitudinal support for dependent plywood sides and NOTE: chine is primary (and only) structural joint unifiying bottom with the sides.

 

With the above as reference, the following is an attempt to explain reason for current "unconventional" build method:

Botttom is as Reuel's with longitudinal running strips, then two diagonals.

Sides are identical to bottom. This method spreads entire longitudinal load evenly upon whole side area and has more wood surface area support, many pieces rather than just single built up log and clamp.

Hope this paragraph correctly makes clear for absence of chine log. The frames are left and not removed as per Reuel's build. Thier most important function is as structural unifiying joint of sides and bottom. Distributing attachment fasteners along the whole frame lengths of bottom and sides. Depending on the built in and spread longitudinal strength of the hull itself rather than concentrating loads at chine and sheer.

If possible, look at photo mentioned on page 78 in Reuels book. The way I picture it: take out just 4" in length at the chine log by either collision or directly cutting out, and the whole hull is in danger of collapse during wave stresses, unless the longitudinals in the bottom are able to pickup the slack, even so the sides would still be critically compromised and in danger of failure.

This post in not to infer judgement upon Reuel's build as the boat is obviously still around and Reuel is known as a quality builder. Just trying to understand.

Reuel's boat Sarah on the front cover is the most beautiful sailboat I know of. Everything with a functional purpose without extraneous dodads.

 

Strips between frames do not make a chine log, that's just blocking. You need continuous structural members running the full length of the vessel. And if these members are minimum size the wood must be of good to excellent quality. The planking in view so far is not a stress skin quality, too many weak spots. I know Reuel says scarfs in the planking are not necessary but I disagree completely. If you look at Teresa's first layer of planking you'll see few if any knots, it is mechanically edge-joined with tongue and grooves, and it's Douglas Fir. Reuel's discussion of wood doesn't seem to cover grain orientation which is vital......

One of the problems of learning design and construction from a book is that the author may gloss over something important, thinking it's self evident.

If you look at chapter 15 in Reuel's book you will find considerable discussion on bulkhead installation. Because he's speaking in generalities the context is lost, but he certainly describes cleats/fillets/and taping of all structural bulkheads. The "frameless" hull actually is framed...with (Teresa has at lest 7 full) structural bulkheads strongly fastened (quote "cleats on one or both sides") to deck and hull.

Once again I'll say that structure cannot be discussed in bits and pieces, it must be a system where each part relates to the rest in a logical manner.

 

There is a alternative view that suggests fundamentalist activity in any religion actually destroys religion in a free country by alienating people...

As for your comment re philosophy it's actually phenomenology of religion not philosophy. Fundamentalist interpretations change with time as inconvenient facts emerge, that's not hard to show ( and that is not philosophy just simple clear fact). Your beliefs would have been quite different to your predecessors 200 years ago, and as I said, because they were convinced the bible taught a flat earth.

Seaworthiness is not just the vessel dimensions, that's something you need to understand. The dimensions are only part of the complex interrelationship of excitation and response that govern a vessels RAO's. If you'd like to understand that even a real ships design has no bearing on a boats design then perhaps you could search the forum or internet for scale effects, particularly stability.

You can change a dimensions and still meet stability requirements, there is no mystical sweet spot for seaworthiness as you keep suggesting. It's all the factors that are considered as one whole that makes naval architecture.

Consider for example that mid ocean the most seaworthy drift survival vessel is arguably the flip ship in vertical configuration and from nothing more than the extreme of waterplane area vs displacement.


Relevant to Tad's post above I was trying to lead you into a basic beam analysis of your hull to show you it was going to be deficient in longitudinal stiffness. Something the biblical Ark shares with your build.

 

What good does specificity do when you are not capable of hearing?

Again, what's the deal with one screw per stake? What kind of glue are you using?

1 5/8" galvanized screws....tell me they are not galvanized sheetrock screws.

So you're seriously considering adding more....it's a little late now.

You're the one pumping out the scriptural fables. If you don't want comment about them, don't post them.