AC 45 World Championship Cheating??

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Aug 10, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,770
    Likes: 189, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

  2. Blackburn
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 842
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: Florida

    Blackburn Senior Member

    ^^^

    You would have had a marvelous career as a diplomat, Corley.
     
  3. GogogoStopSTOP
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 42
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Maryland

    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    AC 34 Main Kingpost Comparison

    Before the comparison, I'd note that the text of the report & the Appendix both say that modifications/reinforcements like those being investigate are "common" & can often be verbally approved. This statement could be the motivation Team Oracle needs to dodge a big bullet, but I digress...

    I've attached a simple drawing that compares the Main Kingposts between: Oracle stock, Coutts's Boat #5, Spithill's Boat #4 & the ETNZ boat.

    Here's the synopsis of the report & my attached drawing:
    1. Boats 4 & 5 have longer kingposts of 7 & 9 mm, ~1/4 inch because of new metal "reinforcements" between the top fitting & the carbon kingpost tubes.
    2. Boats 4 & 5 have longer "new top fittings" that go down into the throat of the carbon tubing by 81 mm's, ~3 inches, compared to a 15 mm standard.
    3. The weight increase for Boat #5 is due entirely to the longer "new top fittings" & the "reinforcements," 1.827 kg versus of 1.440 kg or 0.85 pounds.
    4. The weight increase for Boat #4... is due to the new top fitting/metal spacer, PLUS, the added weight found "glued" inside the bottom of it's kingpost. (From my analysis, 2.985 kg or 6.57 pounds.)

    That's the total explanation of the report for the Main Kingposts.

    My conclusion is still that Team Oracle knew something, they acted on it, they didn't tell the Committee or they told the Committee & there's no record or recollection of them doing so.

    Further, I'd argue that what Team Oracle should do is say they "screwed up." That they didn't have a performance motivation, they just wanted to "beef-up" the kingpost.

    They should argue that "sloppiness" overwhelmingly demonstrates that they didn't have any intention to hide a reliability enhancing modification. They should say:
    1. They are guilty as charged. But,
    2. They obviously didn't mean to cheat by a weight or length change. But,
    3. They did it for reliability reasons, and, "forgot" to tell the Committee because all the boats were doing "Stifening repair / modification to... the Main Kingpost," as the Committee report notes in THEIR OWN REPORT!

    Their defense should be, "everyone was doing it." The Measurement Committee's own report dedicates a full column to "Repair Evidence." (I'm serious here, but ROTFFLMAO too!)

    Too much work on a silly topic, good night.

    gggss

    P.S.: The Forward Kingpost summary is reported as trivial: Boat #4's length is shorter by 5 mm out of 690 mm standard, or 0.7%.
     
  4. GogogoStopSTOP
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 42
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Maryland

    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Attachment of Committee Report

    AC 34 Main Kingpost Comparison
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,770
    Likes: 189, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I'd agree it is sloppy and amateurish not really what I'd expect from a concerted program of concealed rule breaking but it doesn't look good. The main problem it seems to me is not the modifications themselves but that after the mods the boats didn't measure and who had knowledge of it. It will be interesting to see how the International Jury will adjudicate on this issue.
     
  6. GogogoStopSTOP
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 42
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Maryland

    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Yes, Corley, I completely agree. When you say, "... but it doesn't look good" you are right on the approach that ETNZ is taking with the cooperation & instigatiion of their national press.

    They are leaving the impression of "longer length," "weightier components." While that's true, it's more by happenstance than anything else.

    I'm no lawyer, but I've screwed up a few "technical details" in my life & I know I'd rather get kicked in the a$$ for stupidity rather than for secret collusion between engineering & management! LOL

    As with all monumental screw ups... the moons & planets all lined up on this one.
     
  7. GogogoStopSTOP
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 42
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Maryland

    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Look at what I wrote earlier this evening on AC 45 World Championship Cheating??
     
  8. Blackburn
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 842
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: Florida

    Blackburn Senior Member

    Oracle asked for that postponement, I suppose they like having two more practice days 'in the bag' so to speak, before the Jury considers penalties.

    ...


    SAAC has been some interesting reading lately. I see 'Kiwi Spy' this morning reading up on it. Sometimes he's logged on to see reactions to a new article of his... and sure enough!

    New report raises more questions on measurement ruckus

    excerpts:
    Paul Lewis is a little more fired up.

    excerpts:

    ...


    There've been some interesting posts by Monster Mash and Krispy Kreme. They both suggest that (surprise, surprise) the Oracle Team AC45's had surreptitious changes made to them during the ten days or so after the kingpost issues arose.

    That would aggravate the situation to a new level. The Jury will have to do more than just penalizing one or two individuals in that case.

    And the identified non-class-legal alterations seem very likely to have changed the performance of the Oracle boats. Lengthening the struts under the boat in order to improve adjustable tension and sail shape.

    ... People have cheated in one design classes before, but I don't know if there ever was an instance of several one-design boats being tampered with, by the same team, in the same races.
     
  9. GogogoStopSTOP
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 42
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Maryland

    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Richard Gladwell writes quite unethical journalistic hogwash when he says:

    "The latest report shows that the kingposts from both the Oracle boats are different in measurements from the standard part - now in terms of length - as well as weight."


    In fact, he could have said the unvarnished truth:
    The kingposts were ~8 mm longer, that's right, 1/4 inch longer over a length of almost 20 inches.

    In fact, he could have said that the weight:
    The increased weight was caused by a deeper fitting put into the top of the kingpost, probably inserted to improve reliability.

    In fact, he could have said that ETNZ is noted IN THE REPORT, as having:
    "Stifening repair / Modification at the bottom of (their, ETNZ's) main kingpost"

    This is total Yellow Journalism... GO TEAM ORACLE, DAMN THE TORPEDO'S!
     
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,670
    Likes: 337, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =========
    GGGSS, just wanted you to know I appreciate your efforts to counter the Lynch Mob BS with facts. Thanks!
     
  11. Blackburn
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 842
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: Florida

    Blackburn Senior Member

    ^^^


    During this period before the AC Finals, let's hope that the 'lynch mob' doesn't think of making video compilations from the America's Cup World Series!

    'Best of Oracle AC45 racing', showing those boats pulling away from the competition, again and again. Along with "Dark Knights' music?

    ... Come to think of it, some Oracle supporters would love it and probably be cheering along?

    :cool:
     
  12. Blackburn
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 842
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 25
    Location: Florida

    Blackburn Senior Member

    Yesterday the Associated Press had an article in many papers, about a third of which was devoted to the cheating story... Alleged cheating story... Cheating allegations story?

    Reuters News has now just released an long article wholly dealing with it:

    Cheating scandal threatens Oracle's America's Cup defense

    ...

    Here's a doozy of a headline, which they stuck on the Reuters article, at CNBC:

    Did Larry Ellison cheat in the America's Cup? - CNBC.com

    ...

    This is going to be one very intense jury meeting, on Thursday.
     
  13. GogogoStopSTOP
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 42
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Maryland

    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Thanks Doug

    The press is unbelievable. They have to knowingly obviscate well known facts. It's downright malicious. Not that OR isn't plug-dead-guilty!

    Regards, GggSS
     
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,670
    Likes: 337, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Amazingly, this is from Sailing Anarchy-by "Stingray" and its one of the best quotes coming out of this whole mess:

    Posted Today, 09:54 PM

    Again you guys above. Just because open minded ideas that suggest relative innocence by well-intentioned people flies in the face of the frothing hurricane of partisan hot air from the true believers and pitchfork wielders, does not preclude the very real possible validity of those ideas. There is a wide spectrum of plausible realities that run outside of the narrow ones prevalent among the partisans.
     

  15. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
    Posts: 3,001
    Likes: 118, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 509
    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Ha, and Ha again. Spinray! Mr. Obfuscation plus Oracle himself!
    He makes imbalanced, but hyper-righteous noises but is hopelessly unsuccessful. Shot down in flames every time. But still comes back; a believer.
    The last thing I want is Oracle to be dumped from the final shootout ... but their insane cheating behaviour, beginning with the last minute Ruddergate nonsense, epoxied lead shot, now the customized hot rod dolphin strikers to stiffen platform ... on one design ... they're going to be personae non grata ... forever.
    And now they've hired one of NY's top legal sharpshooters ... in an attempt to diminish the layers of BS surrounding Oracle?
    And why the last minute flight of 10 boatbuilders from Core to SF boatshed? To check the 45's?
    Or could it be major changes for the 72 .... to make it legal?? ... because for sure, that boat and staff is going to get the Spanish Inquisition treatment.
    What a book this saga is going to make. And we're not halfway through yet.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.