AC 45 World Championship Cheating??

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Aug 10, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,625
    Likes: 306, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    From Sailing Anarchy:

    The details, if you haven’t seen them yet, are as follows: When setting up the AC45s for the RedBull Youth AC, measurers discovered lead hidden inside the kingpost – the dolphin-striker-like post that extends downward from the forward beam – of the BAR boat. Oracle did their own investigation and found that two of their boats were similarly modded. The Jury protested the boats, and Oracle and BAR withdrew from the regattas in question. Coutts says that management knew nothing about it, and while many one-design sailors will question the dodging of responsibility, there is a plausible explanation: Murray raised the minimum weight on the AC45s a couple of times in response to the gradual fattening of boats due to repairs. Teams were supposed to add weight in specific locations, and it seems that OTUSA’s boatbuilding team, possibly in conjunction with some of the sailing team, decided to put the weight in a position more advantageous to performance than inside the dotted lines they were given.

    What really happened? We may never know; what we do know is that heads are going to roll thanks to an ISAF Rule 69 hearing…stay tuned.
     
  2. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 139, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    It would be interesting to know how having weight in the king post offered an advantage over having the weight places elsewhere on the hull as the rules require. Disqualify a boat before it even races without knowing if it even has an advantage or not seems pretty extreme, this is not a "one design" race is it?
     
  3. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 1,227
    Likes: 101, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 790
    Location: Australia

    catsketcher Senior Member

    The AC 45s are one design and the weight placement was mandated by the rules. Having a single concentrated load low down is almost always better than having distributed load around the boat. It reduces roll moment of inertia and this reduces the tendency to hobbyhorse - many classes have set directions on how lead correctors are installed otherwise builders would make very very light boats and put heavier correctors on the centreboard case bottom or somewhere similar. So it was a performance advantage to Oracle.

    cheers

    Phil
     
  4. Earl Boebert
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 376
    Likes: 46, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 302
    Location: Albuquerque NM USA

    Earl Boebert Senior Member

    Yes, the AC45 was, very much so. And the protocol essentially integrates the AC45s and the Cup into a single event.

    Cheers,

    Earl
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
  5. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,625
    Likes: 306, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  6. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 6,227
    Likes: 417, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Doug,

    I applaud your enthusiasm for the endless postings. But, again, posting articles from others, which are simply hearsay with “some facts” (though independently unproven), since they even admit “what really happened?” is not going to solve anything. Unless you think posters on BDForum have sufficient weight to affect the outcome of a race or a rule or a court's proceedings and judgement on the AC?..i think not, that is somewhat delusion, don’t you think??

    All it shall do, is raise the usual stakes of my dog is bigger than your dog arguments. Since everyone will pipe up with their own opinions and “quotes” from others to support their own assertions. Regrettably whilst your intentions are genuine, it all becomes subverted for polemic attack by others for their own agenda. Thus why post these; it just brings out the deadwood and meaningless arguments over nothing at all.
     
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,625
    Likes: 306, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================
    I disagree 100%. Posting articles from welll known and respected organizations like Scuttlebutt and/or Sail-World has the potential to shine light on the facts. In this case too many have already made their mind up while the facts are begining to show that the whole incident may have been just a mistake. I think it is important to read as much as possible on the subject and share as much of it as I can to help others to have a well informed opinion rather than just an emotional reaction.
    You probably didn't read the second reference but it has the complete report of the Measurement Committee investigation-not speculation but the finding of facts and/or areas requiring more investigation.Your argument ignores that in all most every case it is better to know the facts rather than to succumbe to the speculation that abounds. That is the point-to help people to know the FACTS.
     
  8. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 6,227
    Likes: 417, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Doug,

    Well, it is clear that your understanding of what a “fact” is very different from mine.

    This is hardly factual. It is just a commentary nothing else!

    In the absence of any real hard independent facts, that is precisely what you are doing, creating an emotive environment for those with an agenda and those with less than 2 brain cells to be able to grasp what a debate is with an outlet.

    It is all opines and nothing else.
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,625
    Likes: 306, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    You're wrong,in my opinion-certainly very wrong in suggesting that the Final Report of the Measurement Committee be withheld. You can't seriously suggest that the Final Report of the Measurement Committee is not "real hard independent facts"!
     
  10. SteveMellet
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 196
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 88
    Location: South Africa

    SteveMellet Senior Member

    "In the absence of any real hard independent facts, that is precisely what you are doing, creating an emotive environment for those with an agenda and those with less than 2 brain cells to be able to grasp what a debate is with an outlet."

    I don't agree that there are no "real hard independent facts"
    - Fact 1 : The Measurers found intentionally placed ballast fixed into the kingposts of 3 boats prepared by one team.
    - Fact 2 : The ballast was semi-permanently poured into the kingpost as a resin slurry with a heavy material, increasing the weight of the kingpost.
    - Fact 3 : The class rule of the one-design boat specifies the weight of the kingpost, the modifications exceeded that specification.
    - Fact 4 : The class rule further specifies that corrector weight is to be added in a specific position, which is not the kingpost.
    - Fact 5 : The RD and the Measurers raised the issue with the team concerned, when they discovered it.
    - Fact 6 : The team asked that the issue be kept out of the public domain until they had conducted their own internal investigation.
    - Fact 7 : The team issued a public statement that they had discovered / been alerted to the knowledge of the contravention, and withdrew their results from the AC45 events involved.

    We can all draw our own independent conclusions from the facts.
    If you're only interested in facts, stop reading - the rest is my opinion :

    Facts 1-4 are a clear violation of the class rules, whether intentional or not. A member or members of the team did the modifications, either with or without the knowledge of the class rules. Based on the level of professionalism at this level of any sport, I would find it hard to swallow that it was done 'by mistake' with no intention of altering the trim of the boat or some effect on behavour in waves. Whether it was performance-enhancing or even detrimental to performance is irrelevant, it remains an act of wilfully altering the boats to be out of class. Some might argue that in most OD classes, everbody 'tweaks' the rules, but I see this as cheating to attempt to gain an advantage. The only mitigating factor in all of this is that I strongly believe the person/s who did the modification honestly never knew that it was not permitted, as I fail to grasp how they would knowingly cheat for a win in a series that ultimately does not count for points toward the main event. But then I have to ask why they did not re-read the class rules or verify the modification with the measurers. So either way, I find their actions unexplainable. (ie, either way, what they did was incredibly thoughtless)
    Fact 6-7 are, in my mind, an attempt at smoothing over a potentially disastrous situation in terms of ISAF's response and their decision. Confessing your sins after being caught is not really a credible action, it is an attempt at damage control. Had the team discovered this without the measurer's findings, and owned up to it, I would have a different opinion.

    I do find this all very sad as I have a lot of respect for most of the team members, and they built a lot of credibility and even a fan base from their early AC45 testing video footage, before the AC45 circuit even began. They are now saying that the team managers and skippers knew nothing of it, and are probably drawing straws to see who of the more replaceable members of the team and who on the shore crew are going to take the fall for this, along with a very healthy retirement package from the team sponsor. This is what I find most disturbing - the integrity of the entire team has been dissolved, as there will be a massive coverup attempt to get this to blow over, and the truth will never come out.
     
  11. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 6,227
    Likes: 417, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Whose facts?..and where are they stated in the editing of such articles? Who is an independent adjudicator to review and edit the article to ensure fairness and no bias in all such articles? Every article has some bias. You just need to ask the right questions…


    And this is the point. Everyone is stating opinions and any “conclusions” that are based upon joining these dots of information where one is expected to say “hey presto” the truth is now out!! Personal conclusions are still not facts, these are opinions.

    Until a ruling has been made by the Jury, to which such complaints are taken, nothing can be guaranteed as “fact” regardless what is posted by media outlets. Mind you, in such litigation the truth rarely comes out anyway. The only winners are the lawyers. The main casually shall be the truth, the real truth, sadly, when such vast sums of money and “pride” are at stake.

    So whilst I find the endless bar room debates amusing, you only have yourselves to blame if the usual suspects and their polemic myopic attacks join in and take over. They are simply doing the same, stating their opinion, albeit in a more forceful and not so gracious or polite manner. It is still my dog is bigger than your dog….
     
  12. DGreenwood
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 718
    Likes: 38, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 507
    Location: New York

    DGreenwood Senior Member

    My...haven't we found ourselves high on an Ivory tower of reason and scientific fact. Up where sport is never speculative, where wagering on or guessing an outcome is beyond the purity of thought that will ultimately reduce observing sport to measurement and data. Wow...what an interesting place! So glad you find the ramblings of lesser minds so amusing.
     
  13. nota
    Joined: Sep 2012
    Posts: 30
    Likes: 2, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 24
    Location: miami

    nota Junior Member

    How much weight was in the king post ?
    how big dia and long is the king post ?

    how hard is it to replace the post with a class legal one ?

    why do they want lead added at all instead of
    why not add reinforcement to the areas that broke on other boats ?
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,625
    Likes: 306, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    -------------
    Why not read?
     

  15. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 6,227
    Likes: 417, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    At least someone gets the point I am making!

    I’m curious, what makes your ramblings any more "worthy" than those of someone else’s, save for the fact that the “someone else’s” system of delivery is not as palatable to many?
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.