AC 36 Foiling Monohulls

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by OzFred, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,540
    Likes: 292, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ========================
    But after "before" he has joined the foiling monohull and multihull revolution arranging one of the best funding packages in the foiling monohull AC.
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,540
    Likes: 292, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =============================
    The Foiling Revolution is one of the bright spots in the history of sailing and has the potential to begin to lead a resurgence in participation. Read the whole article-I think the guy is probably right when he questions the so called "decline" when the other factors are considered.

    From the article:
    I accept that none of the events particularly address the need for junior programmes, novice taster sessions, low budget options, but they offered me considerable enthusiasm and reassurance that the future is in fact bright if we recognize and encourage the diversity of attractions.

    This morning, I still have the cast on my foot, but I’m feeling inspired. For sure we should continue to worry about falling participation numbers, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest the outlook need not be gloomy. Looking on from the sidelines, over one weekend, I was impressed by the number of stories out there to grip the young and uninformed, that demonstrate we are a relevant sport, and, importantly, that remind me why I got involved in the first place. I might even fix the boat, when I'm fixed.
     
  3. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,227
    Likes: 65, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    I did read the whole piece. It doesn't address why the sport is losing numbers, what research tells us we should do to address that decline, the research about the sport's image (ie that it's expensive, difficult and elitist), it doesn't analyse the classes that are selling, strong and growing and those that were launched with much fanfare and have gained little popularity. I also note that I can find no evidence that the author is currently racing. If the sailing he's excited about isn't getting him off the couch, why would it get others off the couch? What we need is to get people buying sailcraft and racing them, and if watching some types just leaves people sitting on the sidelines then such types are arguably the wrong ones to achieve the aim of getting bums on boats.

    Yes, the author is (IMHO) dead right when he says the future is bright "IF we recognise and encourage the diversity of attractions" (my emphasis). But World Sailing, most of the media and much of the industry aren't doing that. World Sailing's show utterly ignores the typical cruiser/racer, seahugging dinghies and cats, cruisers, the classic one designs and the other types that make up the vast majority of the sport. Similarly, taking the AC - an event created by and for sailors of large but mainstream racer/cruiser monos - into foilers has robbed the big monos of their marquee event and therefore taken away much of their recognition and discouraged people from sailing them.

    Anyway, I got rolling with these posts to say that the AC was formerly a place where practicality and reasonable budgets were formerly much more important than they are today, and sailing and arguably the AC were the better for it.
     
  4. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 464
    Likes: 45, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    Even if the AC was sailed in Optimists there would be teams spending at least tens of millions. I've heard reports of $14,000 Sabots, but have a mate who just got hold of 3 good ones at $0 on an "as–is where–is" basis, so that's 3 more boats for our local Sabot fleet.

    My club is about to host a 16' Skiff Nationals with about 40 boats, plus about half that of 13' Skiffs, both classes are sailed at perhaps 4 clubs nationally.

    The key to participation is strong class associations in partnership with strong clubs, it's a symbiotic relationship where both parties must work to each other's benefit and to their own strengths. Technology is irrelevant to participation other than it's effect on cost. Cheap, low tech plastic canoes and paddle boards do far more for oveall participation than autoclaved high–modulus carbon. Kids need a pathway from introductory classes like Sabot and Optimist, through youth classes like 125 and 420 to "adult" classes. Without that pathway they grow out of their introductory class and then leave.

    16' Skiffs are technically a development class, but have moved to essentially a one-design (carbon) hull and very restricted sail and (carbon) rig limits to contain costs. So racing is close but still spectacular while the boats are affordable and relatively easy to maintain, taking advantage of newer technologies where it makes sense. They're able to sustain good numbers but only at a small number of clubs that actively support them. They banned lifting foils years ago, which has helped to contain costs and maintain participation. Of course the sailors are interested in the AC and foiling boats, but have zero interest in introducing lifting foils to the class in the same way that 125s and 5o5s have no interest in changing to asymmetric spinnakers, or Herons in allowing carbon foils.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 464
    Likes: 45, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    A sixth challenger has been accepted from Royal Netherlands Yacht Club Muiden and Royal Maas Yacht Club. That's probably all there will be, but who knows? The hard (ish) deadline is 31 December 2018.

    One or two may drop out over the next couple of years, but hopefully all 6 will make it to the challenger selection series in 2021, having sailed in the 6 or 7 America's Cup World Series (ACWS) regattas in 2019–20 before then.
     
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,540
    Likes: 292, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    More on the Dutch Challenge from Scuttlebutt Europe:
    Dutch entry makes it six America's Cup Challengers
    Emirates Team New Zealand and the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron are pleased to announce the acceptance of a sixth Challenger for the 36th America's Cup, from The Netherlands.

    The joint Royal Netherlands Yacht Club Muiden and Royal Maas Yacht Club challenge comes from one of the world's most famous maritime nations. They now join Luna Rossa (ITA), American Magic (USA), INEOS Team UK (UK), Malta Altus Challenge (MLT) and Stars & Stripes Team USA (USA).

    The latest challenge now brings the 36th America's Cup presented by Prada line up to seven teams, the most since the 32nd America's Cup in 2007 in Valencia.

    Today Emirates Team New Zealand have advised the Auckland Council and Government that if there ultimately are not six challengers, there is an option not to build the Hobson Wharf extension as five teams can be accommodated on Wynyard Point saving taxpayer money.

    americascup.com

    ========================
    A bit more: Pressure Drop - Going Dutch For The 6th http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/content.php?8856-Going-Dutch-For-The-6th
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  7. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,227
    Likes: 65, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    What he did after becoming prominent is completely irrelevant to the point, which was that he became well known to the wider population through sailing Finns and Lasers and that is an example of the fact that many in mainstream society are aware of sailing.
     
  8. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,227
    Likes: 65, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    How did they calculate that? Fourteen challenges were made for San Francisco (Sail-World.com - America's Cup: Challenger of Record pulls pin in unprecedented move https://web.archive.org/web/20121008134543/http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=2&Nid=83410&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0)
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,540
    Likes: 292, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,540
    Likes: 292, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =====================
    Nonsense!
     
  11. PNW sailor
    Joined: Nov 2017
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: Seattle

    PNW sailor Junior Member

    Challenger entries vs actual challengers sailing is not the same.

    Wiki
    "Initially, fourteen yacht clubs submitted notices of entry within the deadline, but two were declined and ten withdrew. Club Nautico di Roma was originally named as the Challenger of Record, but after their team Mascalzone Latino withdrew,[21][22] the Challenger of Record became the Royal Swedish Yacht Club, sponsoring Artemis Racing.[23] Other notable teams that withdrew included former Cup holder Alinghi[24] and the Energy Team from Yacht Club de France"
     
  12. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,227
    Likes: 65, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    "Nonsense"?

    As I quite clearly wrote in post 562, the point is that Ainslie was quite well known to the public well before he earned a high profile on the foiling AC boats around 2013. In 2008, for example, he was fourth in the BBC's Sportsperson of the Year prize, determined on national public votes. He was only two places behind the world Formula One champion.

    Just to help you out, 2008 came BEFORE 2013. It would require a special silliness to believe that someone could become well known in the 2000s for something they did in 2013. His foiling is therefore irrelevant to the point, which is that the mainstream public can actually show interest in sailing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  13. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,227
    Likes: 65, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    I didn't say there were 14 challengers sailing in AC34. As PNW Sailor notes, many modern challengers don't end up sailing. I thought anyone who claimed to know the AC would know that.
     
  14. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 890
    Likes: 399, Points: 63
    Location: NICE (France)

    Dolfiman Senior Member

    Here attached is a review (in chapter 4.) of the pro's and con's of "Y" foils as experimented in the 80's on trimaran.
    As advantage : when approaching the sea surface, the lift loss is more progressive, less brutal than for a plane foil
    Is the space allowance in AC36 case sufficient for a significant angle and such effect ?
    As drawbacks, re. their mounting under a tri ama : not retractable, so added drag by light winds , the windward foil is often hitting by waves. These drawbacks are no longer there for the AC36
    During the last Route du Rhum, PiR2 a 83 tri with such Y foils did quite well and finished third in the Rhum multi class
    PiR², foiler à foils en Y https://foils.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/pir²-foiler-a-foils-en-y/
     

  15. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 464
    Likes: 45, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    The theory is that anhedral allows the outer part of the wing to be more horizontal and the inner part more vertical, separating the control of vertical and horizontal lift to some extent, but not completely of course.

    I'm not sure it's a significant or meaningful advantage over a straight foil, which can be canted to windward (a la Moth) to provide a horizontal lift component, it just means adjusting the cant angle and flap. The "brutal" loss of lift is only an issue where the foil is flat, so ventilation affects a large part of the wing simultaneously. Moths going to windward often have the main foil tip breach with no significant issues. Downwind, where the boat is mostly flat, it's a serious issue as the whole foil breaches (hence the spectacular nose dives in big waves).

    I'm sure it's a major area of research, though I don't know if the next AC will deliver a definitive result. There are many variables in the mix, the comparative efficiency of flat vs bent may not be able to be determined unless one configuration overwhelmingly beats the other. I think that in marginal conditions the flat foil has an advantage as it can use its entire lift vertically whereas a bent foil can't. But the tables might be reversed in stronger winds.

    It seems to me the bent always has two different lift vectors (unless one side is feathered to produce no lift) whereas a flat foil only has one, so I think that makes it more efficient. The rules also are a factor, limiting both the amount of bend and the length of the wings. It will be interesting to see what shape the Kiwis use as they are certainly modelling every possible combination and permutation across all expected wind and wave conditions.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.