A replacement of 1-2 diesels of a power boat with a small gas turbine

I think that a submersible will increase the weight considerably. For example, all the exhausts, intakes, drains, windows, etc. have to withstand the water pressure without leaking. Have you considered a viewing pod that protrudes from the bottom? It will also add weight, but not as much. Also, if your operating speed wont be over 30kn a Cigarrette type hull is probably not the best option. They have a very deep vee bottom that doesn't handle well at low speeds.
Yes , we understand the issues arising from water pressure . We'll not use a viewing pod for the time being although very tempting 'cause the hull is a kind of double not mon . We'll have acrylic windows .
Agree with you about the deep V , ours will be a kind of a flattened deep V , now designing the bottom . Besides , our shape is similar to Cigarette but different enough , with bigger beam and height .
 
My comment with regards to latin American expertise was referring to the drug runners that use semi submersibles sometimes based on power boats. A poor attempt of being a little funny.
Yes , I understand , no problem . But theirs are semi submersibles not real ones .
 
Yes , we understand the issues arising from water pressure . We'll not use a viewing pod for the time being although very tempting 'cause the hull is a kind of double not mon . We'll have acrylic windows .
Agree with you about the deep V , ours will be a kind of a flattened deep V , now designing the bottom . Besides , our shape is similar to Cigarette but different enough , with bigger beam and height .
I understand your pessimism about considerable weight . I share it a bit as well and that is why we calculating the weights more precisely now and will be using ( if we have to) lighter materials .
 
I think you need to consider a different approach/approaches. A 40 foot vessel capable of cruising at 30ish knots and then being able to dive to sightseeing depths (about 10-15 meters?) with crew and 5 passengers paying top dollar and wanting a comfortable ride will be hard to achieve. Simply consider the heat of the engines when you go below – extra cooling of the diesels in a diesel electric sub takes time and if you don't do it the sub will be very hot. Imagine how hot your vessel will be with two hot diesels virtually inside the cabin (a turbine with it's relatively low mass is better but on the other hand harder to cool).

Is it not possible to to leave the go-fast machinery on the surface, with one crew, and detach the sub from it? A mother vessel of sorts.

You haven't stated how long you need to travel at the surface. If not too far it may well be more beneficial to design a faster sub and go at 15 knots submerged to the sightseeing location. The longer travel time will be somewhat offset by the fact that you're already below, prepping a sub for dive takes some time.
 
With respect to passenger comfort and high temperatures within the submarine, it would be a relatively simple task to insulate the crew and passengers from engine room heat when running in the submerged mode. They do not need to be in the compartment with the machinery.
 
I've been part way down this road before.
Here is my suggestion:
Have a mothership built for cruising speed, diesel or turbine but have a second vessel, the sub and simply tow it for underwater use.
Less weight over-all, lower cost, increased safety factor, and simpler.
Carry it on the mother ship for transiting or tow it at depth, less drag than towing it on the surface.
It may prove challenging to flood the sub to the extent of reaching neutral buoyancy.
One could maintain communications through the tow line / umbilical.
Just an idea...
 
If you tow the sub, there is not need for it to be powered.
 
With respect to passenger comfort and high temperatures within the submarine, it would be a relatively simple task to insulate the crew and passengers from engine room heat when running in the submerged mode. They do not need to be in the compartment with the machinery.
Yes you right , passenger and pilot are not in the engine compartment , of course .
 
I think you need to consider a different approach/approaches. A 40 foot vessel capable of cruising at 30ish knots and then being able to dive to sightseeing depths (about 10-15 meters?) with crew and 5 passengers paying top dollar and wanting a comfortable ride will be hard to achieve. Simply consider the heat of the engines when you go below – extra cooling of the diesels in a diesel electric sub takes time and if you don't do it the sub will be very hot. Imagine how hot your vessel will be with two hot diesels virtually inside the cabin (a turbine with it's relatively low mass is better but on the other hand harder to cool).

Is it not possible to to leave the go-fast machinery on the surface, with one crew, and detach the sub from it? A mother vessel of sorts.

You haven't stated how long you need to travel at the surface. If not too far it may well be more beneficial to design a faster sub and go at 15 knots submerged to the sightseeing location. The longer travel time will be somewhat offset by the fact that you're already below, prepping a sub for dive takes some time.

The concept is - a power boat that can dive not a sub that can be a powerboat . The diesels will work only above the surface , without any snorkel diving .
Before diving there is of course the slow electric movement on the surface and the same mode under ( 10-40m) with diesels switched off . In this situation I don't see two hot diesels . If I am wrong , pls tell me , maybe cooling needs a certain period of time .
Most of the time we travel at the surface , 10-20% under .
 
I've been part way down this road before.
Here is my suggestion:
Have a mothership built for cruising speed, diesel or turbine but have a second vessel, the sub and simply tow it for underwater use.
Less weight over-all, lower cost, increased safety factor, and simpler.
Carry it on the mother ship for transiting or tow it at depth, less drag than towing it on the surface.
It may prove challenging to flood the sub to the extent of reaching neutral buoyancy.
One could maintain communications through the tow line / umbilical.
Just an idea...
Thanks for the idea , but with regard to better design I would not split it into 2 vessels . Besides , preliminary design is almost ready .
 
If you tow the sub, there is not need for it to be powered.
Hi Gonzo ,
My main question was about horse power and displacement and we instead , a bit more focused on the sub movement . In this case I have one question - how do you think :
Is it possible to use water jets under water ? I would like to use 2 water jets for both diesels on the surface and under the surface , is it possible to use water jets under the surface and if yes how efficient is it ?
 
I think you need to consider a different approach/approaches. A 40 foot vessel capable of cruising at 30ish knots and then being able to dive to sightseeing depths (about 10-15 meters?) with crew and 5 passengers paying top dollar and wanting a comfortable ride will be hard to achieve. Simply consider the heat of the engines when you go below – extra cooling of the diesels in a diesel electric sub takes time and if you don't do it the sub will be very hot. Imagine how hot your vessel will be with two hot diesels virtually inside the cabin (a turbine with it's relatively low mass is better but on the other hand harder to cool).

Is it not possible to to leave the go-fast machinery on the surface, with one crew, and detach the sub from it? A mother vessel of sorts.

You haven't stated how long you need to travel at the surface. If not too far it may well be more beneficial to design a faster sub and go at 15 knots submerged to the sightseeing location. The longer travel time will be somewhat offset by the fact that you're already below, prepping a sub for dive takes some time.

Hi Magnus ,
My main question was about horse power and displacement and we instead , a bit more focused on the sub movement . In this case and with regard to your experience I have one question - how do you think :
Is it possible to use water jets under water ? I would like to use 2 water jets for both diesels on the surface and under the surface , is it possible to use water jets under the surface and if yes how efficient is it ?
 
The "hybrid" solution is really only applicable up to hull speed. Putting in more electrical generator and power is pretty much a waste. If you're putting in a gen set and using that to drive at low speed you only want enough power to push you at hull speed up wind. Beyond that the electrical genset and motors are just adding weight. I don't have any idea as to how much power that is for the size of boat you're working on, but if you put more electrical power into the boat you're wasting weight and spending money on something that has little value. Since it doesn't take much power to push you at hull speed, (upwind) then the hybrid stuff can be a lot smaller and lighter.

Gas turbines in the 1,000 hp class aren't going to be very efficient. Light and powerful, yes, but efficient, not really. If you look at the specific fuel consumption of gas turbines, small helicopter engines typically have a takeoff SFC of about .55 lbs of fuel per horsepower hour, SFC gets better for turbines at higher percentages of power, so you don't want to loaf along on turbines. But at the same time, the helicopter duty cycle is different than a marine duty cycle. In a helo you take off and land at high power for a fairly short period of time, but then you load along at 50% power or thereabouts when you are in level flight. For this reason you really can't operate a helicopter engine at takeoff rated power in a marine application at high a power without shortening the life and if you back off the SFC gets even worse. In order to get reasonable overall performance (that is, not suck fuel like crazy) you need an SFC of about .45 lbs/hp-hr. If you get down to that neck of the woods, the weight you save by getting rid of diesels will reduce the displacement enough that if you want to cruise in the 30-40 mph range the turbine will be in an efficient power band . If you look at the available engines, helicopter engines in general aren't very good since their mission length is short they don't need to be very efficient. The T700 and RTM322 are good (too expensive and too much power for your application) and so it the T800, (a bit too big and really expensive), where the PT6 is less expensive but is also very thirsty, as are the Walter and the Turbomeca engines. You may have a turbine picked out, but I don't see how you're going to get competitive with diesels in this size class vessel. If you were going bigger (say the 65 to 80 foot class) then there are several solutions that make sense, but smaller than that you're going to have 25-50% higher fuel burn than a conventional diesel setup and that's fine if you have money to burn (literally), but most folks would get tired of paying the fuel bills for that kind of boat.

As to maintenance, turbines are much lower maintenance than a diesel, most maintenance is "on condition", if it doesn't break don't worry about it. Oil changes are in the 1000's of hours period or not at all. In a marine application a good practice is to spray fresh water into the inlet for a minute just before shutdown, but that's pretty much it. When you look at what it takes to keep a diesel in terms of regular maintenance, turbines require very little attention in comparison.

Hi Yellowjacket ,
Thanks a lot for your comments , I really highly appreciate them !
My main question was about horse power , displacement and turbines but we with the other participants a bit moved the subject to the sub movement . In this case I have one question - how do you think :
Is it possible to use water jets under water as well ? I would like to use 2 water jets ( one for each diesel) on the surface and under the surface for each electric motor as well ( diesel - electric motor - water jet on one axle) . And if it is possible to use water jets under the surface , how efficient is it ?
 
I have little to none experience from jets but from what I've heard and read the lose a lot when submerged. Will it work as in move you forward – yes. But a jet is best at high speed so low and below seems like a bad deal.
 
"My main question was about horse power , displacement and turbines"

Probably not, would be my answer.
You may achieve 20 - 30 knots but there are so many unknown variables.
The design spiral is very complex, convoluted and has no guess work involved.
It usually boils down to weight and money.
Towing the sub would remove the weight of it.
 
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