a real ship , beautiful and ??

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by JEANYANG, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. JEANYANG
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    JEANYANG Junior Member

    a real ship , beautiful and ?? (ATKIN boat Maid of Endor)

    last year, I found the "Maid of Endor" in atkinboatplans.com .it is truly classic design , it's wonderful!! perfect !! I think...but I hadn't see it in building ,ever hear the report about her sailing! IS IT supremely seaworthy?? Compare to the famous little ship "Flicka 20" ? is it would be safe even in rough seas,such as 45 knot gule. can it across the Atlantic Ocean,or cross pacific ocean? thanks!http://www.atkinboatplans.com/
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  2. lewisboats
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    lewisboats Obsessed Member

  3. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    All depends on the intended use of the boat. The Flicka is nowhere as beautiful as the MOE, but it's a lot more comfortable, with standing headroom and all the amenities.
    Seaworthiness depends on the usage. I'd guess the MOE could claw off a lee shore better than the Flicka due to less windage. But a large cabin lends itself to seaworthiness in another way by resting the tired crew better.
    Both are bulletproof if built as designed.
    Also check out the Amigo. A boat that bridges the gap between the MOE and Flicka. And very beautiful.
     
  4. Tcubed
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Yes that is a wonderful design. And if you have seamanship of course it will cross oceans.
    My personal change would be elimination of engine and cockpit.
    This allows you to free up a lot of valuable space and you know that the engine on that size type of boat is a liability not an asset. Also, if you have any kind of ocean crossing experience you will know that the cockpit is almost never used.
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    That's got to be two of the most ill conceived comments I've heard from a "designer". I suppose you handle the helm from below on your ocean crossing experience? Next to the galley, the cockpit is the most important place aboard and the location that receives the most use. An engine is an asset unless you use it to bash into things, which I would suggest is just as easy under sail alone.
     
  6. JEANYANG
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    JEANYANG Junior Member

    Storm And Worst Weather??

    HI! NICE!! Emphsis ,I want to know: How about stability of the "Maid of Endor" ,as only 6.18m length.
    Does the MOE herself has good maner in more off shore conditions? For the worst weather??
    If the MOE extreme sailing in 40+knot winds ,can be safe?
    Anybody has the experience in such a pocket cruiser ?
    The MOE made of traditional wood construction. Is she strong enough for ocean cross?? or the strip plank better?


    REGARDS
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  7. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    It is not a "real ship" as you wrote. It is a small sailboat.
    20.3 ft length, 1'8" freeboard, big cockpit, gaff rig. It is not made for ocean-crossing.

    I think you are looking for troubles, even if you are an experienced sailor.
    Both Neptune and Poseidon are quick tempers, don't count on their mercy. ;)
    That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
     
  8. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

  9. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Next to the galley, the cockpit is the most important place aboard and the location that receives the most use.

    With a Self Steering a watch must still be kept , but the CP may not be the choice location.

    FF
     
  10. JEANYANG
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    JEANYANG Junior Member

    I understand , I think...Maybe, the transat mini650 is the best choice to sailing in open seas in the range of 6 to 7 metre sailboat. how about it sailing for the worse weather
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Jeanyang, what you need to do, is sail some wholesome boats in rough weather. You'll quickly find that you don't want to be on any small boat in the middle of a pissed off ocean and the larger the boat, the better you'll feel being farther away from shore then you can swim back to.

    The idea of crossing oceans in Amigo's, Flica's, Maid of Endors' or other craft of similar size and accommodation is a test of endurance and skill, the likes of which very few people have.

    The motion of a small boat in 40 knot winds and the seas that go along with gale forces, is abhorrently violent and extremely difficult to manage. Just maintaining control of the boat will exhaust a skipper in just a few hours. No self steering system can be expected to survive long under these loads. In fact, not many small boats can survive long in gale forces. Even the most skilled of sailors will be quickly over matched in conditions like this, which is why it's sheer folly to contemplate adventures like this.

    Has it been done, yep, it sure has, but usually with a support ship on standby if the crap hits the fan and you have to abandon.

    Since your skill level seems ill equipped to comprehend the realities of mid ocean sailing, you should focus on garnishing more "sea leg" time. There's an old saying about ocean going vessels, . . ." don't go in a boat smaller then the surrounding sea . . .". In other words, your likelihood of survival in a 20' boat, in 20' seas is very poor, even for the best sailor. Open ocean work will offer 20'+ seas regularly, so consider your requirements and adjust your desires. The basic problem is eventually you'll get tired of the battle with the sea, make a mistake, broach, pitch pole or other mishap will befall you and now, you just can hope you'll drown quickly or that a rescue is very close by.

    I'm not trying to be coy, I've been in small boats and big seas. It's a lot of work and effort just to keep the decks facing upright, trust me. Revaluate your desires.
     
  12. Tcubed
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Like i've mentioned elsewhere, i don't consider steering to be that much fun, hence the boat must be selfsteered by some reliable method or other. Being out in the elements is very wearisome and exponentially so with dropping temperature.

    So no of course i don't helm from below, because i am not steering the boat ever, apart from when entering and leaving harbours or if there is some kind of maneuvering to do. And i can't speak for anyone else but i personally stay below decks as much as possible. In my case i would estimate being on deck about 2 percent of the time on average, so that is why i consider cockpits a tremendous waste of space, let alone the other disadvantage in that it can pick up enormous amounts of weight (wave crashing on board) [1] and does no favours for being able to construct a light and strong aft deck (a flush deck with some camber is easier to engineer). For keeping watch i pop my head out do a 360 horizon scan every ten minutes and get back out of the wind and spray and sun. To me cockpits are useful for daysailers and coastal cruisers where one must keep a much better watch than once every ten minutes (slight understatement!) and so the cockpit provides a little protection whilst one sits outside for the duration of the trip. On oceanic passages sitting in a cockpit getting soaked/baked/salted quickly gets really old.

    As for the engine being an asset well yes and no as it is also a liability.
    Of course it has its merits or else no one would bother. But one needs to balance that against the cons; Extra weight and drag never improve sailing performance, it takes up valuable space is an extra expense and complication which requires upkeep (more expense). For a little boat like the MOE maneuvering under sail is no sweat (and if it is then some sailing lessons are in order!) , even docking. So that is why i consider an auxilliary in a small boat to be more cons than pros.

    Finally the comments about small boat motion at sea is certainly right and has to be experienced to be understood. There's nothing like a few weeks on the ocean in a small boat to get muscly due to the almost perpetual high g forces that one must fight against.

    [1] considering a cockpit full of water should drain in less time than the anticpated big wave period of encounter it becomes apparent that very few boats indeed have big enough cockpit drains.
     
  13. Tcubed
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Daiquiri, re the video. I had seen it before and the narrator obviously does not have a clue. I would be curious to know the real story of what kind of poor seamanship got him into a SURFZONE (there is no storm there) those waves are big swells entering shoaling water ie a deathtrap. Nothing like deep water seas. When a big swell is running proper seamanship indicates keeping well offshore and making detours so as to never sail over shoals.

    I imagine anyone seeing this on this forum knows all that already.
     
  14. JEANYANG
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    JEANYANG Junior Member

    PAR: thank you for advice , you have change my opinions..if I am going to sailing , I shoud choose more bigger one , 30' to 45 ' are better
     

  15. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You're not in a position to select an ocean going yacht yet. Gain some experience, try out as many different boats as you can and get some sea time under you. You may find (many do) that it's not the thing for you and the romance of it all, has washed away with the last ice cold, breaking wave that crashed down on your head, while performing your latest stint at the helm.
     
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