A little contribution to the ”green” Earth

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by WSW2016, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. WSW2016
    Joined: Mar 2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi
    I am playing since 1 year with ideas and solutions to a “green” (sail) boat.
    OK, a sailboat is already “green” but can it be more? The Wind and Solar energy are already used for boats propulsion but what about waves ?
    The energy contained in waves is many times higher when compared to solar and wind energies.

    Several attempts on the world have been made to use waves energy for boat propulsion already but on below mentioned internet site is my contribution - I do hope it will be more successful.

    Any kinds of comments are welcome!
    Note: My “technical blog” is kind of chronological record of my work and not all conclusions were made the very first day. (happy scrolling)

    www.wabes2015sailboat.n.nu

    Best Regards
    Waldemar
     
  2. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Old GRP boats contain a lot of energy licked up in the GRP resin.

    Figure a way to recover the oil used to make the resin and you can save billions of pounds of CO2 as these boats usually go to a landfill with a diesel digging a hole to bury it in.
     
  3. Jamie Kennedy
    Joined: Jun 2015
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    I would agree with Fast Fred that the major improvement to be made in sustainable sailing is in the lifecyle of the energy and materials used to produce them, and the sails, and the bottom paint.

    The old wooden folkboats, if took take care to get 50 years out of them as many did, where pretty sustainable. Much of that had to do with their fairly minimalist size also.
     
  4. WSW2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi Fred and Jamie
    You are very right - the only problem is that I am not good at all to deal with old mistakes....with chemicals....

    but my solution is to not produce any more such GRP boats and use instead stainless steel.
    The weight of the boat is not higher and we do not need to paint the bottom of such boats.
    Check the Swedish company:

    www.ssy.se
     
  5. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    invent an eco-friendly chemical treatment to make bamboo a good marine building material, then start shape-growing bamboo into boat component shapes.

    I'd like to see a skin on frame using bamboo stingers.

    Some bamboo could be encapsulated floatation, some could be conduit.

    Maybe a use of treated bamboo fibers with a eco-friendly resin as a substitute for fiberglass.
     
  6. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Lets see, eco......

    SS is iron mined out of the earth - power equipment? How much diesel do you think is required.
    Then it is reduced in a smelter - lots of fuel for that? Tremendous temperatures to get the molten material, with all the additional additives.
    Chromium is minumum 10% - right now where i work treats it as a hazardous waste. What does it take to mine, etc.
    Nickel is also in bad odor with "green" types.
    Manganese I don't know about.

    Did you know that SS is weaker than other types of steel?

    Laser welded - how much energy does that take?
    You do know that overlapped welded sheets of metal form a perfect area for corrossion, and SS does corrode - right.

    Then there is the density. 3x aluminum, 10X Oak and that is heavy wood
    I don't believe the story about lighter, and the minimum guage to prevent denting will be a lot more than just for strength.

    This kind of story is typical.
    All hype and no proof.

    As for green, add up all the energy it takes to get to a bare shell boat.

    Of course most wood boats don't last 50 years either.
     
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  7. WSW2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi Squidly-Diddly

    Sorry, no bamboo growing in Sweden - but we do have lot of stainless steel....
    But the idea to manipulate the genes of bamboo in order to get ready boat right from the field is excellent!

    Best Regards
     
  8. WSW2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi Upchurchmr

    Yes, you are right in every your statement.
    However, there is a difference how you and I value the facts about stainless steel boat.

    For me, the energy is less important as we know we do have too much but we need to learn how to harvest it.

    I value very high the fact that the bottom of SS boat does not need to be painted.
    Imagine:
    - 50 years of anti-fouling paint dissolved into the water…
    - 50 x the time necessary to paint the boat bottom
    - 50 years exposure of painter to the paint/solvents (the cost of being sick!)
    - 50 years of paint cans transport
    - 50 years of bills for the paint ($)

    Yes, you are right that some types of SS gets corroded, but not this one used by SSY.se
    One of the biggest advantages of using the SS is:

    “Stainless steel is 100% recyclable and loses none of its original physical properties in the process.
    Recycling one ton of steel saves 1,100 kilograms of iron ore, 630 kilograms of coal, and 55 kilograms of limestone.
    An average stainless steel object is composed of about 60% recycled material.
    Approximately 90% of end-of-life stainless steel is collected and recycled into new products.”
    (source: Bureau of International Recycling)

    http://www.bir.org/industry/stainless-steel/
     
  9. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Actually the statement that SS is 100% recyclable is not really true.
    To get the proper alloy is very difficult with recycling since some % of the alloying elements are lost in the process (lost into the atmosphere).

    You do realize that most governments now do not allow solvents in paint - now its all "water" based? Are you objecting to the solvent water?

    Paint cans transport? Now you are really stretching to make a point. Can you quantify this penalty - NO.

    Bills are not an ecological cost. Your SS boat will cost a lot more than a normal steel hull. I guess that is not an issue.

    Its real easy to make a list. It is not so easy to quantify the impacts to see which process has more impact.
    In that method of crying wolf I'm no better than you are.
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    In the not too distant future, it's likely we'll be able to print boats from possibly organically derived materials. I can see it now, kelp hulls with barnacle goo adhesives to bind the fibers, printed in microscopic layers until a hull shell is produced. Of course this would require electricity to run the printer, so maybe some humans in a squirrel cage, driving a generator, during the printing process, to burn off the excess calories of their hefty lunch time extravagances.
     
  11. WSW2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi Upchurchmr

    "Its real easy to make a list. It is not so easy to quantify the impacts to see which process has more impact.
    In that method of crying wolf I'm no better than you are."

    Yes, I do agree with that part of your comment!

    Any comments on waves energy?
    Best Regards
     
  12. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    PAR,

    I actually could support advances in material science which reduce pollution. I just don't see the story most un-educated eco nuts are selling.

    Perhaps basalt fibers with barnacle goo adhesive? I can't yet see how to get strength without high strength long fibers in a printed construct - but maybe someone will be able to do it, without ruining the national economy for one boat!

    Of course basalt fibers takes lots of energy, so that is not eco free either.
     
  13. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Wave energy.

    Sounds great, just take energy from the Earth/ Moon system and use it for something else.

    The real problem seems to me to be the fact that wave energy is very low density energy. Not much to be had from a single wave.
    So you need to collect and concentrate the energy to have it usable in current industrial processes.
    Collection and concentration (a change in the type of energy) always has losses. This fact has resulted in lots of proposed systems to fail economically / practically.

    The fundamental reason why oil and coal energy is so prevalent is that it is the most economical form of storeable energy available - which is a completely different discussion than its ecological impact.

    We could do a lots of different things if we didn't count the cost of doing it. The most ecologically friendly thing we could do is to reduce world population to 1/10,000 and abandon current technology - go back to hunter gatherer societies. With a large portion of the world trying to get out of that type of society I don't think its going to happen. (OK, I am exaggerating a little) :D
     
  14. WSW2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi PAR

    Yes, it will be really not too distant future when the houses and boats get 3D printed.
    Not sure, however, if the materials can be so environmentally friendly.
    Maybe the marine microbes will like to eat them?

    Still we need a proper propulsion for these "future" boat hulls right?
    What about to include the waves energy into that equation?

    Best Regards
     

  15. WSW2016
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    WSW2016 Junior Member

    Hi Upchurchmr

    Waves, when compared to the wind and solar energy are very high density to me.
    Most of the devices build for the harvesting of wave energy are stationary and just move up and down.

    Proposed by me system can work in continuous movement and in addition as the boat is moving it hits more frequently by waves and this is the game changer.

    It is working like an apparent wind for the sailboats.
    Sailboat when moving close hauled ("against the wind") is hitting more cubic meters of air and its kinetic energy. This gives more speed..more energy…until drag…yes, you know how it works.

    The same I can see for a boat moving against the waves just catching more of the waves kinetic energy.

    OK, it takes 200 years to develop bicycle so maybe I need some more years…..as well…
     
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