A Head Turner From PAR

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by dskira, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Thanks Daiquiri [​IMG], but does it still work that way when the boat doesn't heel and dig the chine in as much as a sailboat . . ? ?

    Cheers,
    Angel
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  2. daiquiri
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    Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)

    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I believe it will work, because the sideways (leeway) motion will create a vortex along the weather (windward) side of the hull, as the waterflow rolls up across the chine. This vortex will, in turn create a depression which will act against the said sideways drift. The skeg will do the same job in the aft part of the hull. At the end there will be a situation of equilibrium, where the boat will move leeway in a gentle and slow motion.

    Let's hear what can PAR say about it.

    Cheers
     
  3. Milehog
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    Milehog Clever Quip

    With the helm that far from the cockpit, if there is a possibility of singlehanding the boat, consider keeping your options open for the addition of a cockpit control station.

    I like the foreward cockpit, very practical.
     
  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Leeward skid and wandering around will not be much of an issue. This said in contrary winds, you will experience some push and pull, which is indicative of high windage craft. With thrust vectoring from an outboard, displacement speeds and an attentive skipper, all quite manageable. Will the bow get blown off? Not as much as you'd think. Underway her trim will immerse the aft sections considerably more than her static lines suggest, providing sufficient lateral area. She's not slab sided, like a Bolger box, but her sides are obtuse enough to the water plane to be adequate in this regard. The lines posted elsewhere in this thread are close, but not exact. The general shape is shown, but refinements and other features aren't shown. If she does show some unwanted tendencies (not likely), there are a few easily bolted on options that could dramatically address the issue.
     
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  5. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    PAR & Daiquiri, thanks for the explanation [​IMG]

    I was asking cause I've seen some high windage craft with later added bow plates to keep track in side winds which made me wonder how this is handled on Egress. What I get from this is (please correct me if I've misunderstood) you need a motor that is able to maintain displacement speed to keep her on track in these conditions and some attentive steering.

    And of course, as this is a boat for protected waters, the other option is to seek shelter before conditions are so that sailing is more of a task then a pleasure for skipper or crew, which could be important to keep your wife aboard Troy as a lot of casual crew can handle less than the boat . . ;)

    For this unlikely case, are you thinking about a bow skeg* or something else ?

    * as she has to less draft on the bow to add a bow-plate in front like on this (very different) one . . .

    _Elisabeth_of_Truro_Steel_Trawler_Yacht_with_Ketch_Steadying_Rig_and_Bow_Plate_1_.jpg - _Elisabeth_of_Truro_Steel_Trawler_Yacht_with_Ketch_Steadying_Rig_and_Bow_Plate_2_.jpg - _Elisabeth_of_Truro_Steel_Trawler_Yacht_with_Ketch_Steadying_Rig_and_Bow_Plate_3_.jpg
    - click pics to enlarge

    BTW Troy, if you make up your mind how much wind and current you want to be able to sail in you can decide how much power you need in the 10-30 Hp range and pick up an outboard when a good opportunity shows up.

    Good luck !
    Angel
     
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  6. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Well, I won't be spending much time battling the wind and the seas... Egress will be more of a houseboat than a passage-maker, moving from one nice spot to another and settling in for the day. :)
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The bow plate on that well burdened beast isn't really going to help much, though I can see why some might want one. That boat has several issues and a fixed shaft, so helm inputs will offer slow response, to a boat that wants to "go with the flow", so to speak. The best solution for a boat like that is a bow thruster or multiple jet thrusters. I would think that boat would handle like a pig, understandably for what she is.

    Egress will not suffer anything like what that boat might. It's not about maintaining displacement speeds, though having enough reserve engine capacity to resist windage is always a plus. That boat's fixed shaft and freight train tracking hull shape, do more to screw up it's "handiness" than anything else. That's a box car with a prop and wheelhouse.

    Egress has a much better shape, is much less burdened, offers vectored thrust from her prop and will tend to follow the sea, rather then plow through it.

    Chine runners would be a quick and easy way to help offset some unwanted leeward skidding and they can can be tacked on quickly. Troy has it right, she's a weekend retreat, with the ability to putter around a bit better than a typical houseboat. If it's blowing like hell, it's unlikely she'll leave her hook or berth. If she's "caught out" when a storm rolls through, she'll act like what she is, but not become unmanageable, unless Troy no-brains himself into a hole. Even then, he can take the beating like a man, run before it or just hunker down with a bottle, until it blows through. Her weather decks are self bailing with generous scuppers, so he'll fair well and probably be the wiser for it. We all learn this lesson the same way; we take the boat out on a questionable day, get our butts spanked and are grateful to be back in our slip, with no real damage, the whole while Egress will be just laughing about it, knowing it's a piece of homework that had to be done.
     
  8. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Maybe I can compromise, and run before it with a bottle....:p
     
  9. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    But don't get me wrong; I expect Egress to behave just fine when she's underway. I think she's well suited for the waters she'll be in.
     
  10. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I've been seriously distracted since I received Paul's plans for Egress. Between heading to Ft Huachuca for my nr 2 son's graduation from his Army school; trying to spend time with him (in between his girl friend and buddies) before he heads to Korea; working overtime to cover for guys on vacation or heading to Mexico for their mother's funeral; doing maintenance on my Nissan pickup that gets me to work and back; fixing up our old home to rent it out; etc, I've been stretched kind of thin. All the more reason to have a boat ready for an escape as soon as I retire.

    I'm not arguing at all with Paul's decisions on the overall dimensions and shape of the hull and cabin. As far as I can tell from my definitely amateur viewpoint, they all make sense. But the accommodations on his tentative floor plans? That's a little stickier....

    For starters, the kitchen cabinets and counter tops seem a little thin; they don't leave room for standard-sized sinks and stoves -- even of the apartment variety. Are marine versions really that much smaller? Likewise, the settee that turns into a bed is several inches narrower than most recommendations for a double bunk instead of a single.... I do retain hopes of luring my better half on board now and then, and I'd hate to put her on an air mattress (although given my history of snoring, and re-fighting Vietnam in my sleep, she might not argue all that much about being banished to one). :p

    Also, there's a space between the head and galley that just begs to be turned into a shower stall.

    But all that has little or nothing to do with the seaworthiness or structural integrity of the design, the carefully thought-out construction details, the economy of fuel usage, or the overall looks of a boat that will be a head-turner wherever she goes. What I'm wanting to rearrange might be labeled important from a comfort or practicality viewpoint, but it pales in comparison to the artistic impact of the boat as a whole

    Hopefully this weekend I'll get around to importing Egress' lines into Draftsight, so I can start playing around with the accommodations. I'm also working up a list of materials, at least for the basic structure. Don't want to get into the cost of propulsion, electrical systems and plumbing just yet -- t's hard to add, subtract and multiply while I'm busy sobbing....
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You'd be surprised how small they make stuff. If memory serves (I haven't opened the file) your sink (for example) is a Scandvik model 502253, stainless, which measures 12 1/4"x10" at the flange and is 6" deep (yes, I happen to know this, I spec it frequently). Yep, small as hell, but really only representative of a sink. You can install what ever you like in this regard. The stove shown would be representative of the Force 10, two burner in counter gas unit, though again, what ever you prefer or can fit. Admittedly, both of these units are small, but not uncommon on boats of this size.

    Spaces on boats are often quite restricted. 24" countertops are common in a home, but I've drawn up 15" countertops on Egress (Accommodations Plans B anyway). You can pinch and tuck these dimensions as desired, with no ill effects. As we've discussed, I generally leave these details up to the builder, as they'll just do what they want anyway, so the drawings are just an idea or a possibility. With the convertible settee, I've shown a 38"x78" berth, which is tight (the width of a land based single), but I wanted to still have access to the pilothouse with the berth opened up. You could rob more room from the pilothouse hatchway and a maximum of 52", which is pretty comfortable, though you'd have to crawl over the corner of the berth to get at the pilothouse hatchway.

    The alternative accommodations layout (head forward) offers some options, such as 24" countertops, which lets you use standard size appliances. As with all things in yacht design, you end up robbing from one thing to dole out to another. For another example, Accommodations Plan A is also limited to about 52" berth width, but if the berth moved aft a wee bit, you could get up against the cabinets opposite which is about 55" and 1" wider than a land based full size. Conversely, you could pinch a few inches from the head and leave the berth where it is.

    As Terry enjoys: "yacht design is a convoluted collection of discontinuous compromise". The hardest part, is picking the battles to fight. I'd recommend full size mockups from cardboard and 5 gallon buckets (great seats, if a little short). I'm a see me, feel me kind of guy, so I use mockups frequently.
     
  12. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Thanks for the feedback, Paul. I'm a little bemused by the size of the sink you just mentioned, but not all that surprised. I had a sneaky feeling that if you drew it, it's out there.

    As far as the size of the berth goes, I'm probably looking at some sort of compromise. I've seen 44 inches listed somewhere as a minimum for a sea-going double, and that seems somewhat reasonable for a couple who are still good friends....

    One possibility, as you mentioned, is to move the settee/berth setup aft to avoid clogging access to the pilot house. So I've considered placing the hanging locker (or a drawer unit) forward of the berth.

    While I'm at it, do you have an opinion on the latest composting marine toilets offered by Nature's Head and Air Head? From reading up on them, it seems to me that they require a little more attention, but beat installing holding tanks or trying to empty porta-potties....

    Your advice about full-sized mockups is well-founded, and I think it's important to do them in some sort of 3-d mode. When I was building sets for plays, TV commercials and movies, I found out that just taping a set out on the floor wasn't good enough. Especially in plays, the actors would bitterly complain about a set being too small and confining during rehearsal, then be shocked by how large it was when actually built.
     
  13. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Nature's Head seems to be a better version than Air Head. Each could stand improvements and I wouldn't consider them for live aboard, though weekend cruising, possably. The biggest improvement would be a small PV panel to power up the fan, which removes the head from the boats electrical system. Switching to COIR bricks would be another recommendation too. Lastly buy a spare urine bottle, as it fills quickly and you can get stuck without a discrete way of disposal (like over the side at 3 am, while no one is watching). I know a few cruisers that have found, both the Air Head and Nature's Head acceptable, but you have to stay after it and follow the directions. For your uses Troy, it would seem a viable alternative. A lot of beer drinkers aboard will cause the urine bottle to fill a couple (or more) times a day (hence the point about a spare).
     
  14. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    Troy, design a bed that pulls out from under the sofa and pops up into a full double or even a queen if room allows. For a bath and shower get a 36"x36" shower pan or a 32"x 42" pan. set the toilet in one corner and use the diagonal for your overal length with 36 x 36 being the smallest. The diagonal of 36 x 36 is 50.9". 32 x 42 has a diagonal of
    52.8". You sit on top of the toilet to shower with a hand held shower head. You can wet yourself, shut it off and soap, turn it on to rinse and excess goes down the shower pan drain. You drill a new drain for the toilet. Works great....Look at camper plans for smaller interior stuff. Just epoxy the walls or glue thin plastic with a shower curtain to cover the door. It's what I've done several times. Stan PS works with a 6 gallon water heater, 10 gallon is heaven and women with long hair love you. No leaks with a shower pan edges. To test it out for your size draw out a shower pan on the ground, put a bucket in the corner, sit down and see how much room you have. A very small hand sink can go in any corner or use the kitchen sink.
     

  15. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I don't think it would be wise to run without spare urine bottles, Paul -- even though most of my friends are the sort who will pee over the rail, unless there's an actual uniformed cop in line-of-sight looking directly at them. :p

    I'm not sure what you mean by PV fans. But there seem to be plenty of solar-powered fans out there, although I haven't looked at them closely yet.

    I think my biggest concern is reserved for the times when the boat is parked alongside my house after an outing. In this dry climate, I'll probably have to keep tabs to make sure there's enough moisture to keep the composting going.
     
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