A Head Turner From PAR

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by dskira, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    If i convert my square metres into acres and what we paid for it, it equates to $2.11m per acre!

    Land isn't cheap here in Japan either! :(

    Troy:
    A garage clearance seems to be the order of the day i reckon :)
     
  2. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    I didnt do any conversions as such. My calculations may not be that accurate.

    I could find some land on the web with a picture with price if anyone is interested in world land comparisons . I would find that interesting if the Mod would accept such a thread.
     
  3. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    This a great site, brows at you leasure and if you click on the picture you get a tour of the property or clic on the map and it show location. Typical houses in this area.

    30 baht to a dollar.

    http://www.fairproperties.com/houses_for_sale_2.htm

    Click on Pattaya info to see some friendly girls.
     
  4. bntii
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Location: MD

    bntii Senior Member

    re- post # 123

    Nice dwg's Par
    AutoCad?
     
  5. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    Yep, it's cheap. Then again, it's in the middle of the desert....

    http://arizonaproperty4sale.com/gateacres.htm
     
  6. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    Troy, do a complete lumber list on the hull which you will build upside down. Be sure to
    figure standard and better for the jig-cheapest wood you can buy. I'm assuming you will build it out of softwood like doug fir # 1 kd. Once you have your side frames, bottom frames, chines, keel battens and all connecting pieces then set that aside and figure your plywood count for the hull only. Estimate fasteners, epoxy adhesive, misc. supplies and tools you may need that you do not have. Bid this out and you may be quite surprised at the cost. Lumber is at record lows in Calif. now. And the other stuff you can price out on line. Figure your time to build just the frames then just buy frame lumber. Do the same for plywood.

    I'm building almost the same size boat 8'-6" x 28' and paying cash as I go with my meager retirement income. I'm timing it to various stages of building and it seems to be working. Will not be able to buy the engine this way so may finance that option down the road. This recession and 84 each cleaned me out and I'm to old to replace that income so I get by in clever ways and time everything to income.
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If I was building this boat, I'd probably build it upside down, but most don't have access to the roll over equipment I do, so I'd recommend an upright build. If you feel the roll over wouldn't be a big deal, then there are advantages to an upside down build.

    As to materials procurement, large purchases get the best pricing. Ordering all the plywood at once will get a substantial discount. Commercial purchasing also will get a discount, especially if the order can be tacked on the end of another order, say for a client. Lastly make purchases from non-retail outfits. These folks deal with commercial vendors and customers only, so they sell below retail, usually at wholesale. Also look for specialty sellers going out of business. They may have stock you can use, for a fraction of their former pricing.
     
  8. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    Ordering as much of the 'standard' construction material (wood, plywood, fastenings, glass and whatnot) as possible in one fell swoop and having it delivered together can probably save me some serious money. If nothing else, I'm sure some of my old suppliers will still give me a 10% contractor's discount....

    But it may be worth breaking it into two orders: one for the plywood straight from a wholesaler, and everything else from a lumberyard with a contractor's discount.

    Tentative plans: I probably won't build a separate jig, as such. Instead I'll set the actual hull frames upside down at each station and run them long, with temporary cross pieces that set on a pair of trued 2x6 or 2x8 rails, attached to a temporary plywood or particle board floor over 2x4's.

    I'm planning to do that behind the 12x60 mobile home on one half of my property, because there's a covered back patio along the back of it that I used for a workshop sometimes when my parents lived there. It won't cost that much to close it in with plywood, to discourage my tools from walking off in the night.....

    After the hull is built, I'll stick rollers under the rails and shove (or pull) it out into the sunshine. I'll turn it over one way or another, roll it on into a bow shed, and start work on the decks, cabin, pilothouse, etc.

    I'll need to check with the county to make sure they don't give me grief about the bow shed, but I suspect that at most they'll want a firm date for its removal. Two years, if they're like a lot of jurisdictions.

    Getting back to the financing, I think I'll start with the credit union first. If they laugh me out of the place it won't cost me anything.....
     
  9. tsmitherman
    Joined: Oct 2012
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    Location: Alabama

    tsmitherman New Member

    Any updates on this build? I just ordered study plans for the Floom, and I look forward to following this build. Hopefully it will help me avoid mistakes when (and if) I decide to tackle a Floom.

    Tom
     
  10. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    Well, the only update is that while I'm in pretty good financial shape overall, I'm still cash-poor. So I talked to the guy I usually do business with about a home equity line of credit, and he said his company stopped doing those this year. But he suggested that since one of our homes is worth about three times what we owe on it (even in this depressed market) we could probably refinance it, pull 12 or 15 thousand bucks out in cash, and still wind up with lower payments than we're making now.

    So I brought the subject up with the wife the other day. Long story short: she said no way is she cosigning another dime of debt on anything we own together, just so I can build myself a !@#$%^& boat. She said I can wait until I move some of my Arizona property instead, even if it means I wait two or three years to get started on the boat. I replied that if she doesn't want to do it the painless way, I can by God borrow the money somewhere else under my own name instead -- and she can deal with what it does to the monthly budget, every time she sits down to pay the bills.

    After two days of the running battle that started, I packed up all my crap and moved it over here to our old home for a little piece and quiet. Is that some kind of record, to have a boat blow up my marriage before a stick of wood even gets ordered?:p

    Anyway, apparently she's simmering down. She told me on the phone last night that she has a counter-proposal she wants to run by me, if I'll come by and talk to her. So we'll see....

    I'm getting too old and lazy for this sort of drama. I'm beginning to see why some folks wind up divorcing in their old age, after spending a lifetime together.
     
  11. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    Troy, I woud bet that the hull bottom frames, the side frames, bottom battens, side battens, keel and chine, timbers if any, plus 2 sheets of plywood for the transom and gussets will cost you no more than $500.00. Add $ 200.00 more for 2 gallons epoxy adhesive. That will keep you busy for a few months with your work schedule.
    My 2 bits.
     
  12. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    That may be good advice for a lot of people, especially if they're single and no one else has any claim on their money. And if push comes to shove, I may do it that way.

    But starting something and expecting to pay for it piecemeal along the way hasn't worked well for me in the past. There always seems to be something wedging itself into the family budget that becomes more urgent, and the project gets shoved back. And back, and back.... I would much rather have dedicated cash funds or a confirmed line of credit, before I even start.
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You're not alone Troy, projects like these aren't quick, nor small.

    Projects like these need a plan, other then the scraps of paper I might send. The budget is the logical first step. Materials procurement another hurtle. It can cost twice as much in materials if you piece meal the deal, rather than make major "stage" purchases at once. I usually try to cut the project up into these stages and plan for each. All builds have natural stopping points and I often call these building plateaus, as many get to one and just don't finish or there's a long delay. The setup, where the frames or molds are erected on a strong back is one. They see how big this puppy is and they just stop. The next is hull shell planking. They get her all planked up, roll her over and realize they've got a whole crap load more to do and stop. The "seal in", where the weather decks and deck structures (cabins) are installed, but they still have a vacant interior, no hardware, engine, steering, controls, electronics or the pink seat for the composting head. There are several natural plateaus on a build. Expect them, plan for them and work through them. Instant gratification isn't a function of boat building, unless you've hired hookers as shop help.

    In short, there are lots of things and places along the path of a project like these, that can cause the builder to "put it on hold", which is what it's usually called, for the first year or two it languishes. After that, it's the beast to the other half, the eye sore to your obnoxious neighbor, the revenue generator to a code enforcement officer that's had an eye on it for months, etc.

    Make a plan, include the better half and prepare to put more time and money into it then you initially intended.

    Welcome aboard Tom. Your stuff goes out in the AM.
     
  14. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Indeed.

    Work out your 'rough build estimate cost'. Then double your estimated build cost, as a first off and then anything from 2 up to 5 times the build time. If these numbers scare you, then you should seriously reconsider the project.

    The "your time" is never factored in...it all costs!!..one way or another, money, marriage, time with kids, days away from your mates watching the big sports game etc etc. And of course time = money.
     

  15. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    When I was a contractor, I used to add up every conceivable minute of labor and every imaginable scrap of materials a job might take. Then I multiplied the material costs by a fudge factor of 10 to 40% (depending on how complex the job was), doubled the labor costs, and added my profit on top.

    That method was surprisingly accurate. And any time I got talked down I lost my butt, so eventually it stopped happening. As a contractor I worked for before I got my own license once said, "why should I pay to work, when I can stay home and watch TV for free?":)

    Of course, I was an experienced professional when it came to residential construction -- and I'm definitely not a professional boat builder. So I'm resigned to stretching even my normal fudge factors... but at least I won't be paying worker's comp, FICA or SECA, and unemployment on my labor.
     
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