A design program for boats similar to 3d home architect?

Discussion in 'Software' started by Tropical Sailor, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. pdmsvn
    Joined: Jun 2014
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    Location: Vietnam

    pdmsvn Junior Member

    Napa software and Inventor 3d can help, maybe I could support what you want.
     
  2. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Rwatson,

    Thank you for your interest in this project. I´m sure much of what you said is correct under what you consider normal circumstances. But, this project is anything but normal. Here´s why:

    1. Boat to be used in protected waters 4’ deep as an eco (the wind is free) water taxi or for tours of the protected wildlife area of Ria Lagartos, Yucatan. The string of Islands that protect this body of water is only about 500 meters from the docks on the mainland. Here´s a link to google satalite view of the area: https://www.google.com/maps/@21.5728274,-88.2241656,2210m/data=!3m1!1e3

    The furthest they might go would be Holbox:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@21.553424,-87.8300223,70729m/data=!3m1!1e3

    2. Boat is not mine and never will be found in a marina. So does not need insurance as it will not be in a position to damage any yachts.

    3. Boat will be built by and used by locals for their benefit, not for mine.

    There´s a more complete SOR in this thread:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/looking-cat-plans-suggestions-50595.html

    I do take exception to one thing. You said, “The hull you have designed is a far cry from an efficient sailing craft”. First of all, it doesn’t have to be the most efficient or fasted or most weatherly, because of the reasons I´ve already explained. But even so, how can you say it won’t be efficient? It´s inspired by the Wharram Tiki boats. The proportions and hull shape are very similar. So why wouldn´t it be efficient, unless the Wharrams are unefficient? But, if that´s the case then why did you recommend me paying $500 for plans to one when you said, “The $500 for well engineered and planned boat eg http://wharram.com/site/catalog/buil...esigns/hinemoa will seem a very small sacrifice in moments like that.”

    I basically thought this thread was finished with my last post because I had found what I had asked for. (A simple program to draw hulls with) But, as you have kept it going I´ll post some photos of a more refined and 4’ smaller version of the project. It has examples of two different types of seating in the “center cockpits”.

    [​IMG]

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    I´ve also drawn something inspired by the Acorn, even though I did it for my own enjoyment and practice with the software. Richard might be providing a design for this project, but he feels the larger Gypsy would be more appropriate.

    [​IMG]

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    Thanks,

    Andy
     
  3. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Thank you. I think I have what I wanted with sketch up, but it might be nice be able to do naval calculations also. I will investigate these programs that you mention.

    Thanks,

    Andy
     
  4. pdmsvn
    Joined: Jun 2014
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    Location: Vietnam

    pdmsvn Junior Member

    Your sketch up is very interesting. If needed, modeling in Inventor 3d from your sketch for detail component is more and more interesting, and it is easy for fabrication part by part, I think so. One more, you can also advert your production. Maybe you contact me anytime via email: pdmsvtvn@gmail.com, we have full tool and software maybe simulation product as well.
     
  5. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member


    Thanks Andy.

    I don't want to be a negative voice, just want to raise valid concerns. I understand the drawing issue is separate from actually building the boat, but heck, the only real reason for drawing boats is to eventually build them.

    Anyway, just covering the points you raised -

    Regarding insurability - boating in shallow waters is not a guarantee of safety, quite often it is the reverse. You are more likely to encounter short, sharp waves and maybe underling shoals.

    The point about being a 'water taxi' makes me wonder if you will be open to public liability issues. Having others build the boats is even more problematic, as your design is putting more than your own responsibility on the line. Especially since reading your SOR, you are definitely planning to put other people in your design. Not doing the Engineering on a design before advertising it could be regarded as criminally negligent.

    Regarding hull efficiency - if you had looked carefully at the links I sent you, you would see that neither hull is a square, flat bottomed shape.

    Square hulls with 'rocker' are poor hull shape for a flat sailing boat like a catamaran. It makes them 'slam' and put unwanted loads on the hull, and slows the dramatically hulls in the 'free' wind. Speed and efficiency in sailing is important if your motor has run out of fuel, or you want to save motoring costs. Square hulls under power are very uncomfortable.

    Programs like Sketchup are not good at doing curves, nor 'unpeeling' developable shapes for cutting out panels.

    Putting attractive women into your designs is always welcome, but if you are serious about going to build the boats eventually, you will need to calculate how many of them you can safely invite aboard, along with their supplies for the day.

    On a totally different part of the problem - dont forget a self contained toilet arrangement, or the women will not come aboard
     
  6. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    RWatson,

    Truly, I don´t want to argue, but I just don´t understand what you are telling me. Or how you can speak of criminal negligence? I am not advertising any plans! Actually I´m hopping Richard Woods will provide the plans. But before Richard offered his help I was looking for a program for drawing boats. (And I found one) The images I posted are not plans, but merely exports from said program that show I found a program to do what I needed. Which was the point of the thread.

    As I said, I don´t want to argue, but I still take exception to what you said about the fotos showing an inefficient sailing boat. I asked you in my last post to explain why you think the drawn vessel would be inefficient. You answered: “Regarding hull efficiency - if you had looked carefully at the links I sent you, you would see that neither hull is a square, flat bottomed shape.” Nor is the catamaran I drew. The smaller more refined cat from the second post is not flat bottomed either. So why are you talking about flat bottoms and what do flat bottoms have to do with the supposed inefficiency of my drawn boats? You go on to say: “Square hulls with 'rocker' are poor hull shape for a flat sailing boat like a catamaran. It makes them 'slam' and put unwanted loads on the hull, and slows the dramatically hulls in the 'free' wind. Speed and efficiency in sailing is important if your motor has run out of fuel, or you want to save motoring costs. Square hulls under power are very uncomfortable.” O.K. I agree with you. But if you look at the pictures I posted you will see the bulkheads/frames and you will see that they are triangular and have no flat bottom. As I said before my drawings were inspired by the Wharram Tikis. (which have no flat bottoms). I´ll repost a couple of the pics from above showing the frames and curved hull that I drew.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So where do you see the flat bottom? Certainly you’re not talking about the pics I posted of an Acorn inspired cat with sexy girls on it, are you? Because those photos were posted after you made you comment about the inefficient hulls I had drawn.

    Again, this is not to argue, but no one wants to be accused of something unjustly. Even if it is something as trivial as having drawn flat bottom inefficient hulls. And especially something as grave as being criminally negligent. And more so when the drawings are nothing more than proof that I had found a drawing program that I liked. Which, again, was the point of the thread. I´m glad to see someone moved the thread to a more appropriate forum.

    Thanks,

    Andy
     
  7. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    I´m sending you an email

    O.K. I´m sending you an email

    andy
     
  8. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    So basically, all your drawings are not going to be the the basis of a boat ?
    Its just an artistic exercise ?

    I must have gotten the wrong impression, based on comments like "Boat to be used in protected waters 4’ deep as an eco (the wind is free) water taxi or for tours of the protected wildlife area " and "Boat will be built by and used by locals for their benefit"



    Well, the attached example certainly looks flat to me - but, having said that, a V shaped hull is also not the ideal configuration, especially for the purposes you are envisaging. I don't want to bore you with the detail here, but I have put a footnote on this post with my reasons

    What you are finding though, is that in Sketchup, you can only do sharp shapes - which makes for inefficient hull designs. Boxy or V shapes are all Sketchup can do well, and these are not optimal

    If you are getting Richard, or some other qualified NA to do the final design, then that will be absolutely the best way to go, and you will have some success, and all my misgivings are not applicable.

    End of Post







    Footnote - about V profile cat hulls, especially James Wharrams designs, for anyone who cares.


    I have been following James hull designs for many years, and have sailed on a few of those designed boats. I built my own V hulled trimaran many years ago.

    If you read his literature, you will note that the reason for the V hulls is for
    1) Ease of Building
    2) Comfort in sharp seas

    In practice though, it results in a
    1) very poor load carrying capacity with terrible interior room for the amount of material. The accommodation is dreadful. This is why very few other mutlihull designers utilise the V shape. in the later designs, like the Pahi series, he tries to remedy this by torturing the plywood a bit to fatten up the hull section.
    2) bad maneuverability. Combined with the typically low aspect rigs, quick tacking in confined waters is challenging. This is important in racing - but also in very light or very heavy winds in reef rich shallow waters, and in tight moorings.
    3) With a V hull, you need to rely on the hull to provide the lift to windward, and sideways resistance while reaching, like a Hobie Cat. This method provides lower performance to centreboards or daggerboards. Your windward performance with a V hull is not good.


    Many other designs are much better in load carrying for the optimum use of materials, and are much more maneuverable.
     

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  9. Ingolf
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 17
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    Location: Austria

    Ingolf Junior Member

    I'm using a combination of Freeship, Rhino and SketchUp for approx. 2 years now and i only can recommend this package to any amateur builder.

    Starting with the raw modelling, displacement calculations etc.. of the hull in freeship, i am then exporting different dxf files to continue work in Rhino and Sketchup:

    - Different versions of 3D Linesplans for Rhino
    - And a 3d dxf mesh for sketchup

    Depending on the details i am working on, i use to set different spacings of waterlines or buttocks in freeship, which can then be easily transferred to surfaces in Rhino. From there the respective components can then be exported as a skp file for sketchup, where you can use them as bulkheads, stations, building jig layouts, etc...

    This procedure is especially useful when you are working with the more complex shapes of the hull (stations, spray rails, deck detailing, etc...), where the intersection function of sketchup very often has problems to detect the hull lines in an appropriate way.

    Of course, in addition to that i would anyhow recommend to make a full size lofting before the build - but as far as it concerns design details, or checking the spacing for installations, etc... you will get good results.

    Finally, for the more enhanced visualization, i can recommend to integrate the RenderIn extension to SketchUp. Works fast and nicely without crashing down the PC during every rendering.

    Here are some examples of what this package is capable to deliver:
     

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