A bluewater, ocean going water ballasted matorsailer. Why not?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by xarax, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    BUT, you have to admit that far better weather prediction, made possible by the computers and the satellites, permit cheap but fast motorboats to escape the nemesis of the true god of the sea. I have many friends in the fast motorboating world that did t even thought of going out a 6, even at 5 beaufort , and, although they stay many days ashore, at the end of the year they have gone out more times, and they have done much more miles , than most of my sailboat friends. I suspect they enjoy the sea at least as much as we do, and they are not just ignorant in the death row, as we like to see them. These are the clients of the motorboat industry nowadays, and they are getting more and more, while cruising sailboat people, especially motorsailor people, are getting less and less. Greater motoring speed is made possible by modern strong light materials and engines, and greater travelling range is made possible by modern accurate weather prediction. The old slow and heavy classic motorsailor has to be modernized, has to go much faster while motoring, otherwise it will meet my perfectly engineered and machined German :) Roleiflex (and Leica) on the museums and history books.
  2. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    Jap is bloody Jap crap!!
    full stop
    when you climb into a German, or Fr or Brit car, everything falls to your finguretips, with Jap crap car, you search for ever to find things
    My landrover disco, with td5 BW eng RAN circles around Toyota, esp in mud andfuel consumption
    Jap diesels have never ever caught up
    Upon my wanderings through the mts of GR, I came upon this plaque, Greeks slaughtered by the Germans
    Xarax is a very tolerant man, and I am never biased:)) so there
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  3. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    it would help if you would translate what is written on the plaque :idea: :D
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Yankee Go Home ?

    But leave your CA$H?

  5. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    well I cried. it is abt slaughter of grrek by nazis, wait til xarax comes translate
    this is sacred stuff, Fred so please , do not joke my friend
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    No Fred, it tells us that there were 6 Partisans killed in the village (here called Patriots), thats it.
    I do´nt see how this is related to topic, but (non biased) Stu will tell us.
  7. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
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    Pierre R Senior Member

    9 knots continuous is a fast ocean crosser by todays standards. Will the cheap manufactures jump in with a beamy cheap light ocean crosser that will do 11 knots on the same fuel? I suspect they will as many have design departments that seem to be your ideal designers who answer to the marketing department.

    I think where many of us have a large disagreement in the term "Blue Water". "Blue Water" is derived from the concept of managed risk. There is always risk in any crossing of large expanses of water and just about any sailboat is technically capable of crossing. The difference in the definition of managed risk, where the line is drawn for "Blue Water" vs "Coastal" and its not a clear line. The more personal risk you are willing to underwrite, the more options you have in the choice of boats that meet that criterion.

    There is also a perceived notion in the general boating community that "Blue Water" equates to rugged quality and dependable boats. This has not been lost on those manufacturer willing to push the limits in their rush to reach the bottom of the price wars. Today I suspect that more price built cheap boats, unsuitable in my opinion to cross the oceans, are now crossing oceans than properly built blue water boats.

    I think a signifcant part of our over reaction as perceived by Whoosh and Xarax is a subconcious rebellion against the encroachment of this mindset. For the freelance designer in our litigous world, there is real liability in following the cheapening trend and pushing the limits. The big cheap manufactures can afford a few lawsuits. Reluctance to endorse you ideas comes from the fact that more and more clients are going to designers because they cannot find the impossiblly rediculous things they want in a conventional design and want to push the limits even more than the cheap boys. More and more of them waste your time and once you have educated them, they go out and buy the cheap fast unsafe boat from the cheap boys advertising true blue water boats.

    Most of them want:
    More speed than they can get for the chosen service
    More accomodations or more stuff crammed into less space.
    Features that are incompatable with what they want to do with the boat
    Far lighter designs and exotic scantlings
    To many exotic power systems
    Designs that sacrifice resale value and performance for some ill conceived notion.

    Basically you see these entire forums consumed with this type of requests and the designers here are gratious enough to try to educate. Being that its free education, many have little patience for the stuborn "One day youz overly conservative designers will learn" responses from forum participants.

    Xarax maybe you are not but you seem to come across like one of these combative participants and in the end will go out and buy the Beneteau 52 once they make a few cheap changes and advertise it as a blue water boat.
  8. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    Japs may be bloody, they certainly were bloody during the second war, but not crap in relation to engineering, I am afraid...:)
    I respect their engineering skills as much as I hate their ignorance, to say the least, about the value of the individual person, value on which western civilization is founded.
    My dear Whoosh, I dont know about Japanese diesel engines, although I suspect most of the ship diesel engines nowadays are Korean made, i.e. copied Japanese.
    But if you ask car mechanists about the quality and reliability of a Lexus, compared to a Mercedes, you will see that Toyota is a VERY serious company. I have a very close friend , just much wealthy and little crazy, that has own and driven hundreds of high class cars, Aston Martins, Italians, best Porches, BMW and Mercedes, when he got in to a Lexus, he got out speechless ! He couldn’t believe how civilized, smooth and powerfull was this car. My A class needs oil, my Toyota Verso never burned a drop. I have another friend that was chief engineer in a Japanese steel mill company in Greece. When he went to Japan and saw the production lines and the military organization of the factories, poor workers in military uniforms and boots, running across the yards like ants, he couldn’t believe his eyes, and he is a PhD that have already visited hundreds of factories in US and Europe. He told me that the pureness of the Japanese steel plates was unbelievable, and their machine tools very much ahead even from the German and Scandinavian. A proof about the quality and power of the Japanese engines is the whole motorcycle world. I don’t know why they don’t care about boating, I guess that boating is a pleasure of the individual free man that loves the freedom of the sea, values (still) unknown to the Japanese culture.
    Of course, when they are ordered to go to the sea , mainly for economic and warfare purposes, they do it very effectively! Their battleships during the second war were monstrous machines, they carried huge guns with great speed, their contemporary British battleships were far behind in volume and power. We are all lucky they encounter the brave americans and smart european scientists in their way to conqeer Asia....
    We do not want to remember the second War in a way that can bring back bad memories and sad facts, do we? I am sure that there are hundreds of such plaques with hundreds of names all over Greece, Serbia, Poland, Russia, etc, not to mention the plaques with Jewish names everywhere in Europe, but I am also sure, and I have to stress that, that we humans we are silly little creatures, as apex1 said, and bloody cannibals too, and with a little twist of history things could have well been just the opposite ! If Greece were a bigger nation, without natural recourses, pushed in the corner by a shortsided treaty like the treaty of Versailles ( that was not ratified even by the US congress ), starving out of war due to disproportional war reparations and determined to revenge, there is the possibility that there would have been many such plaques in Germany, Italy, Japan, etc. No excuse for the bloody Nazis, but there would have been criminal animals like these in Greece too. ( Of course, with the well known ineffectiveness of the Greek state, they would have been far less.:) ) And Greeks cities would also have been wiped out just hours before the war would have been ending, like Dresden...

    Let us now return to entertaintment subjects, to the question of the feasibility on not of a fast motorsailer, or sailing motorboat, as I started to call this figment of my imagination.

    P.S. They were not partisans, they were innocent civilian people, in many other similar cases mostly women and child, chosen randomly and executed in cold blood by the Nazi occupation forces...Some of them were burned alive in furnaces...And we, the civilizes Greeks with thousands of years of humanistic tradition , have acted similar atrocities, in smaller scale of course, on Turkish Cypriots, out of racial and religious discrimination... I am so glad Europe will not follow any such vicious blood circle any more ! ( Well, I hope so !!!)
  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, me too.
  10. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    How many ocean crossings will a motorsailer do in its life, compared to smaller one-two days trips ? The vessel I propose should be able to travel at an economical 9 knots for a long range crossing, BUT it has to be able to go fast in those numerous shorter trips of modern life.
    I doubt it ! I suspect they dont have any departments any more because they went broke, because they did not sell what they built, because they have no clients, because they had never any such departments and lost the marketing war with the cheap fast motorboat manufactors without firing a bullet !
    I am not ! :) I am not a consumer of things, I love simplicity and the freedom of not having things. " The more we have the less we own..."' I confess that when I was a quite wealthy man I was spoiled a little, as most of us did, and have thought of, just for a very small period of time and just thought of, buying a big Grand Banks, but you see I am sailing even when I sleep, so I dismissed it immediately! Now I couldnt afford it, and that is because, even in money matters and bussinesses, I am a contrarian, and contrarians die under the heels of the horde, sooner or later. I personally dont like mixures, I like pure people, lines, purposes, materials, water, air, feelings, I believe that even the vast complexity of the world is not made out of any infinetely more complex "higher authority" , but out of simple elements, whaterver they are, may be out of pure mathematics, so I am a minimalist, SO no, I will not buy a slow OR a fast motorsailor ever ! And I hate the horde of stupid clients thar want jacusis in their boat OR in their house..
    Having said that, I still believe that there exist a real market and engineering window for a, (well, not so much ocean going or so long range if we can not achieve it), fast sailing motorboat. The tasks that I dont want to leave out is of self righting and 25 knots, because otherwise this window will remain closed, Could water ballast be the solution to this problem ? That WAS the case...:)
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    That WAS the case..

    And this was the answer.........NO!

    A rugged boat, capable of ocean crossing is not a boat capable of running fast and vice versa. Thats true, proven and well documented, no matter which propulsion. A combined propulsion (again no matter which combination) makes the vessel in question heavier, read: performing worse. Any addition in complexity has which effect???????

    So, the answer remains. NO!

    Sorry to blow the bubble.
  12. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    Are there any lawsuits against the manufacturer of this cheap 25 knots canal/lake boat ? :)

    Attached Files:

  13. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Ha, never ask a lawyer if a major manufacturer was sued:

    U.S. District Court in Md.: Ace American Ins. Co. (representing Mathews) v. Grand Banks
    Highlights from the case: In November 2005, the Mathews set out on a voyage from Rhode Island to return to Maryland aboard the recently-purchased yacht. Ace American Insurance Co., a subrogee of Mathews, alleged that, during that trip, the yacht suffered severe damage in the form of "catastrophic failure of a major longitudinal stringer, and detachment (detabbing) of the interior structural components...[which] resulted in the helm seat dislodging from under Mathews, the windshields cracking around him, and the window frames separating from the pilot house, and other structural damage."

    In fairness Grand Banks won this case, though their victory had to do with technical issues of liability in Admiralty law as opposed to disproving the allegations. In fact GB admitted the new boat fell apart while operating, but in Admiralty law there is no manufacturers warranty against product defects, if the defects ONLY damage iteslf. In other words the boat fell apart but noone was injured so therefor no liability on the part of Grand Banks.
  14. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    to Richard,
    what has plaque to do with this thread?
    peruse thread,
    all is calm
    be happy All of you
    I read
    China cost De. 68 billion each year in stolen tech, ideas, manufacturing

    Yes Jappo man runs like ant Aussie man is lazy, beyond belief,
    De man is Teutonic and always will be, --well maybe

    Greek man you must bribe,mon ami tells me so
    i would never sell a boat to a Floridian lawyer, I once had an offer, close to finish he wanted title, 10% paid, 90% at completion of sea trials, I ran a mile
    Good morning Stuumble
    WELL ZILCH, ITS 0330, i GOT UP TO MAKE TEA, AND SEE THE CRICKET RESULT, WOTS CRICKET? A game that was played once, by civilised people, unforrtunately aussies picked it up:)
    It is rather good to have a cultural view of things here, , sure the topic gets muddied and diversifies, one learns, one also learns to temper ones temper,

  15. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    LOL ouch, attorneys like that hurt the reputation of us all... Personally I prefer the pay standard rates for a build, then sue for damages when the boat fails sea trial (don't they all :D)

    The onlt time I could really understad structuring the contract like that would be if the builder and designer are from the same company, and the boat is being designed to fulfill some particular task, and the design side is warrantying that the design will meet that criteria.

    Otherwise... morning Whoosh.
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