a better tiki 21

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by guzzis3, May 7, 2019.

  1. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Agree to 23 feet in post #45, near a lee shore there also can be a reef or other shallows, which is when I'd rather would be on a Tiki 21 than on one of the other mentioned small cats, that need to employ their deep daggers and rudders to their full depth to be able to escape over any shallows, which is most likely ever to happen to any coastal sailor, which is one of the causes of the many wrecked non metal deep draft craft all over the world...

    PDF - Sailing Wharram Catamarans in Severe Weather - Tiki 21 world circumnavigator and Jester Challenge sailor Rory McDougall on page 33 of 43

    ‘‘ . . . . the real burning debate is being caught in a tight situation where you don't have searoom to run before the storm . . . . ’’
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  2. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    If V-shaped hulls were the best answer to seaworthiness, I suspect a lot more would be designed that way.

    I would bet that no Tiki ever escaped shallow shoals by way of windward ability. The lifting power of their V hulls is a whole factor worse than daggerboards, especially at low speeds with reduced sails in a storm. Jester Challenge never mentions windward performance in his whole article.

    "that need to employ their deep daggers and rudders to their full depth to be able to escape over any shallows,"
    It doesn't make any sense. Most board based hulls can select optimum depths of board, and if you are in a lot of wind, you don't need the full board if you are worried about depth.

    And for those Wharram hulls that leave the forward centreboard out of the hull when building, they are in deeply double trouble - because the windage on that high bow is going to be a major issue.

    Another long term Wharram adventurer who has had several modern designs since, Hank De Velde, had some comments about Wharrams, that speak to their windward performance and why people buy them.

    "46-ft, .... Wharram and I went to England to have a look. So a lack of money initially made me buy OROWA ...Sure, I later got used to better performance boats. But I have always said; 'in case I run out of money, I can always go back to a Wharram'."
    An Interview with Circumnavigator Henk de Velde https://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/Velde-interview.html


    If I was at risk of embayment on a lee shore, a Wharram is the last boat I would ever want to be in.
     
  3. guzzis3
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Dejay:

    I laughed a little that you get mad at the "artsy" types and their idiosyncrasies but you yourself want to build a boat just because it has a certain style - even though there is plenty of more utilitarian and better engineered competition out there :)

    I don't have a problem with style at all, I have a problem with people who can't reconcile style with practicality. Like an architect who puts the hot water system in part of the house where it can never be removed or replaced and industrial designers who have no clue about ergonomics. I've seen architects design buildings that cannot physically stand up and their arrogance unfortunately gets them into positions of authority, wasting tons of money and then an engineer has to come in and try to clean up the mess.

    People talk a lot about dagger boards being more efficient but the other reason they have supplanted centerboards to a great extent is that you CAN raise them and maintain steerage. Ian Farrier went to some length to make a kick up daggerboard rudder for precisely that reason. I live and sail in queensland where the waters are perilously shallow, reefs are everywhere and in many places currents are tremendously strong. I am as aware as anyone of the benefits of shallow draft and I've always been a fan of V hulls for the reasons you cite, but they are most certainly NOT the only path to a suitable craft.

    A tall rig can, and should, be shortened for the conditions, and I think it's generally accepted now that the paranoia about high freeboard is much overstated.

    But you are again missing my point. While Wharrams are not great sail boats I think they have their place. That's why I was musing about the tiki 21 in the first place. I guess I have not made myself clear so here goes another try.

    I bought Wharram study plans and was surprised at how poor they were especially given the cost.

    I bought Wharram build plans for 2 designs and was shocked at how badly they wasted labor and materials.

    I looked at the cost of Tiki21 plans and am shocked at the cost.

    Given Wharram is quite successful at selling plans I am surprised no one has done something in the same vein, not a direct copy just something similar in style while taking full advantage of "modern" build techniques and attention to detail, then sold the plans at a lesser cost. I would think there would be a solid market for that product. I am specifically NOT talking about a design for a "modern" cat as that has been done very well many times over, rather something in the vein of the Wharram but moved on somewhat.

    Anyway..
     
  4. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Are there any estimates how many build plans for multihull yachts or boats in general are being sold?
     
  5. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Guzzis3, there simply is no market. The time of home buildt boats has esentially passed even for multihulls.
    Wharram still sells plans because of his "brand", and people buying from him would not buy from others. Even with a cult following I doubt right now he sells enough plans a year to make a living of it.
     
  6. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Curious. I would expect at least a slight uptick in home builds because of the success of youtube channels about sail life. They got to have a positive effect on the market?

    But maybe sailing and marinas are just getting way too expensive, or people getting poorer.
     
  7. 23feet
    Joined: Dec 2014
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    23feet Junior Member

    No, I get where you are coming from. I just want to add some balance to the negative narrative about Wharrams. I am a big admirer of Mr Woods' designs (and other small multi designers) and have bought several of his study plans. If I ever were to take the step of building a boat myself it would probably be a Woods, or similar, more contemporary design. I do think, however, that being on the water is by far the most important goal, and if that means using what you have or can afford, then you need to love the boat you are with.

     
  8. waterbear
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    waterbear Junior Member

    I ran across your blog several years back and I was really impressed by your trips out the gate and up the coast. Also, by coincidence, I'm pretty sure I saw you sailing just south of the Richmond bridge while I was driving over the bridge. I think that's a testament to how much Little Cat gets used.

    One thing I've learned over the years is smaller, easier to handle boats tend to be more enjoyable and tend to get used more often. The Tiki appeals to me because it's very light weight with not too much sail to muscle around, yet at the same time is also quite roomy (on deck) and capable.

    I'm curious, with this in mind, and with your experience, would you want a bigger boat for your current usage pattern?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  9. waterbear
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    waterbear Junior Member

    I've seen the Tiki 21 plans and I think the plywood nesting is pretty efficient. I also think it doesn't look terribly labor intensive to build. Eliminating the strongback does help.

    That being said, there is a ton of filleting and a lot of epoxy required. I find filleting to be labor intensive and I don't like working with epoxy. Also, as I've said before, I think there are some design details that could be both simpler and stronger, like the beams.

    And yes, the cost of the plans is extortionate.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  10. 23feet
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    23feet Junior Member

    Hi Waterbear,

    Yes, Little Cat and I frequent that patch of water often. I heard a car horn one day - I wonder if that was you ;-)

    I am like most people in that I always want a boat a couple of feet bigger than the one I have (hence 23feet). Having said that, I try and remind myself that the bigger the boat, the less often I am likely to sailing. I try and remind myself that it is all about getting out sailing. Even a 21' boat is a lot of work to keep in good and safe condition. But if I could have whatever I wanted I would have something 24-26', say a Woods Eagle or, yes even a Tiki 26.

     
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  11. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Funny you should say that. I currently own 3 "going" boats, a 16' recreational rowing shell, a 3.5 meter beach cat and a Cal 14, 13'10" ballasted fiberglass m....m...monohull. Impossibly cute, utterly impractical. Your tiki 21 is an ocean liner by comparison. Details on my blog:

    Miscellaneous things.. https://guzzis3.blogspot.com

    I saw estimates years ago that Wharram had sold about 8000 sets of plans over the years and that Farrier was not far behind, but I would think most designs sell in the 10's and on a good day the 100's. I don't know anyone under 50 that owns a big sailing boat. The young people go for motorboats or kite surfers. Not only are fewer and fewer boats being built the second hand market from what I've seen is utterly collapsing. We are getting old, sick and dying and sailing is dying with us.

    Right now on gumtree australia is a foam sandwich bridgedeck cabin cat 9.1m for $38kAU

    Catamaran 9.5 m x 4.8 m sailing cruiser | Sail Boats | Gumtree Australia Wanneroo Area - Quinns Rocks | 1217685087 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/quinns-rocks/sail-boats/catamaran-9-5-m-x-4-8-m-sailing-cruiser/1217685087

    Ok it's narrow, probably not a great boat but if they can't find a buyer at that price how is anything else selling. There was a horstman 36 recently in foam for about $44k as I recall.
     
  12. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    redreuben redreuben

    I sail on the Swan River in Perth, the Hobies have a mix of teen, younger couples and older, the 125’s the same, every weekend the little boats are always out training youngsters.
    And the trailer sailers have a healthy smattering of young couples.
    Even the trimarans have some new blood with middle aged mining money bringing in new boats.
    All good my friend.
     
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  13. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    The secondhand market finally sees the effect of mass production and generation changes. Selling a boat with cramped and ugly interior, no holding tanks, no shower and outdated equippement might be difficult in todays market.
     
  14. waterbear
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    waterbear Junior Member

    I'm so glad you heard me. I didn't want to say anything, but as soon as I saw Little Cat I started honking feverishly and flashing my lights. Then I pulled over, got out of the car and started playing "in your eyes" by Peter Gabriel on my boombox that I was holding over my head.

    Thanks for the input. My last boat was a 26' monohull, and I definitely feel the size and configuration was an impediment to getting out on the water and enjoying myself.

    Your point about secondhand wharrams is spot on. While not perfect, they can be found used for relatively little money. Woods' designs have more appeal to me, but realistically that means years of part time boatbuilding. Here in the Bay Area, with salaries as high as they are, building your own boat makes about as much sense as knitting your own clothing.
     
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  15. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    That is really interesting. I don't think I know a single person under 50 that sails, so that's reassuring.
     
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