a better tiki 21

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by guzzis3, May 7, 2019.

  1. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    These concepts were published on the Proafile site a dozen or so years back.


    something a little more modern, but supposedly inspired by Wharram
    Catamaran 5m50 Sardine Twin https://www.sardineboats.com/voiliers/sardine-twin/

    Having owned a Hinemoa, I don't really see any point in building a small wharram. There are other boats that offer more for a similar amount of materials.

    The logical progression of what you propose is something like the Woods Eagle.
    Or if you want to keep the LOA down, something like this http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/designs/murrayilses/zubian/index.htm

    The big advantage of the Acorn is that you could buy an old Tornado and utilise the rig, fittings, rudders etc. Likely cheaper than building a Tiki 21 from scratch. While it probably has a bit more interior space than the T21 it is stll a very small boat, but I would imagine it sails quite well.

    Actually I don't see why you couldn't take a modern small existing design and just design your own polynesian inspired bow and stern treatments - there are lots to choose from. That way you could have the sailing benefits of a modern hull shape and give it that rakish look. You could even make them easily removable so you could convert the boat back to its original spec for resale.

    Like it or not Wharram is a 'name' designer who has pretty much cornered the market in boats of that type. His plans are more expensive than some but cheaper than others. Dick Newick wanted 10k US to do an 8.5 racing tri for me, needless to say I didn't proceed, but I still paid a grand for the plans for the design I eventually selected, from a virtually unknown designer, even though I already had a set of Bucc 24 and Grainger 075 plans (which had cost my Father in law something like 5k).
  2. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    rwatson: That is fabulous. Of course I wouldn't do it but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

    Thank you, well considered comments as always. RW V boats are the obvious comparison but as far as I know he never did anything smaller than the surfsong. Surfsong hulls as far as I can tell are too wide to trailer and of course it's a heavy ocean going cruiser.

    Everyone ditches the canoe stern but I am more inclined to push the waterplane more teardrop shaped, like Colin Archer and the derviative canoe stern monos. CA's boats were a tad faster and approximate the cosine shape later made famous in _that_ "wherry" (which isn't really a wherry at all, more of a whitehall) but later designers fattened the ends to make the boats a little more comfortable without losing too much speed.

    One of the things that baffles me about the T21, the hull sides are about 3' wide. Why the hell wouldn't you use the whole plywood sheet ? Hinemoa is worse because not only is the side chopped down but to get the 3' he tacks on a separate gunwall. Again I'd widen the beam until the widest transverse part of the bridgedeck was 8', again to use the full sheet. One of the things that just freaks me out with wharram is he seems to completely ignore the 8x4 sheet. How do you design boats for decades exclusively based on plywood sheets yet completely ignore the sheet size ??

    I'd lose as much of the timber as I could and use high strength fillets along the keel. Lose the skeg and fit BIG flip up rudders. The caper cats originally had shallow spade rudders but many later got big swing rudders. The improvement in windward ability was incredible. Hobie 14's always had massively oversize rudders for the same reason. I've got a pair in the shed and they are only slightly smaller than RW specifies for the 25' wizzer!

    The large mast beam is great but even if it was truncated on the tiki allowing the cabin to taper forward.

    Anyway, Wharram's lack of practicality bothers me on the one hand, but the other side is the path taken by everyone else. I love the boats of TFJ, RW and others but a lot of them are screwdrivers. They do the job beautifully but no one commissions an oil painting of a screwdriver to hang on the lounge room wall. On my lounge room wall are line drawings of John Marples CC26. Spectacularly beautiful boat, IMO as pretty as anything Herreshoff or even Gardener drew. About the same time Richard Hartley drew the sparkle/lively 28. Great boat and not ugly, but it's a screwdriver. Wizard, Sango, Windsong are pretty boats. They have a bit of romance about them...Acorn not so much.

    Obviously Gary Dierking's outriggers are a very different thing but his designs are spectacular. Every detail well thought out, beautifully executed and imo beautiful looking boats. I guess what I was thinking is what would a minimal cruiser 21'ish Polynesian style cat look like if it were designed by him. Combining the practicality of a Woods with the lines of ulua.

    I LOVE that and hadn't seen it before. Pity it never eventuated, but it's a multi chine ply hull and that's a lot of work. Not so keen on the plumb bows and stern either. I like plumb bows on "modern" cats but if you take that path you might as well build acorn.

    Worth every penny :D I have a couple of TFJ's books and they are a great read, amongst the very best ever written on multihulls. I thought his wife was selling the plans but maybe that's stopped. The website is still there. The cat plans he sells though are multichine and fairly complex. If I went that way I think I'd rather embrace RW's dory hulls...

    DK has designed some interesting boats but as you say what he makes available now and the price of plans...
  3. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    THAT is spectacular. Doesn't tick the simple build box but gee if plans existed for strip plank or foam that would be a lovely option!

    Your tri must feel like an ocean liner after the hinemoa :D

    You could of course fit a beach cat rig to a tiki but it sort of misses the point, and beach cat rudders won't fit that stern. I would argue that building boats full stop does not make sense, especially in this market where you can buy second hand REALLY cheap. There is currently for sale here a Horstman 36 in foam for $45k, and a foam 30' bridgedeck cabin cat for about $40k. I just don't get how anyone pays 500 POUNDS for a set of tiki 21 plans...I have hinemoa study plans and they include 1 drawing that doesn't even have a hull section view and some useless photocopies of old seapeople magazine articles. RW gives you more for free with his study plans.

    Oow, I hadn't thought of that. Clipper bow on an acorn :D

    Yeah but your boat is massively bigger than a tiki 21. I've done a really rough estimate and hulls/beams/bridgedeck I should be able to build for between $2-3k. $1k for T21 plans is a massive portion of the build cost.

    075 plans were $5k ? Ouch. You can buy them for about 20ish when they come up, occasionally less. Mind they probably don't win very often anymore and that was always the only point of an 075. As for the buccaneer they are what they are and very limited beyond that. Not my first choice for cruising...

    Thank you for chiming in.
  4. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    I remember a Colin Archer boat here in Freo, looked like an avocado with a keel.
    He spent three days tacking back and forth to get around Cape Leeuwin before sailing back to Freo and selling the boat.
  5. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    That's shocking. Maybe it was claimed to be a CA but wasn't. His boats were designed mostly in the 1800's and from what I have read there is very little origional documentation left. People build canoe stern boats and call them CA's but they won't go to windward if they don't have proper keels sailplans etc.
  6. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Fibreglass, long keel, so was probably a rip off as you say.
  7. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Have you actually tried to bend two ply sheets in your desired form? Or even cardboard for that matter? Just try it and tell me how the sheer looks when using the full width of the sheet without any cutouts. Also tell me how you will push the ply around to make the teardrop shape without going multichine.

    The original CA were double ended because it was easy to make a strong watertight sternpost. Comfort was ignored. As for how weatherly they were, let's just say the accounts of their exploits were written by people sailing square riggers or similar full keel (complete with deep forefoot) gaff rigged fishing boats. Take them with a grain of salt.
  8. lucdekeyser
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    lucdekeyser Senior Member

    There should be few simpler and cheaper to build to last than the new HP mini cargo ferry. It is measured in ply wood sheets lengths/widths and meant for local build and use in the Marshall Islands and beyond. An infusion version is the HP25 with hull molds built within a week. Add a clam shell pod for camping ...
    Tiny Turnip likes this.
  9. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Got some good ideas in there.
    I would have used the "Windsurfer Rigs" from the HP 25 on the "Mini Cargo Ferry"
    Having to shunt those 2 Melanesian sprit rigs is a lot of unnecessary work.
    Tiny Turnip likes this.
  10. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    I concur the Hinemoa study plans don't contain a lot of data, but the full plans are very detailed for what is a simple boat, the other wharram plans I've seen are also very detailed. I would imagine the T21 plans would be the same. Wharram estimates about 5.5 k pounds to build a Tiki, so the plan cost would be 10%. If you want to build one you just have to pony up. I agree it makes little sense to build when you can pick them up for half what they cost to put in the water, but no one ever said building your own boat was a sensible thing to do. ;)

    Around that figure and that was 20+ years ago. Again they are amazingly detailed there must be 25 large format sheets of drawings, full size mylar patterns etc, etc -you're paying (in this case) for a lot more than just the lines and scantlings.

    You posed an interesting question. Looks aside, I always felt the Janus 22 was a 'sort of' modern fit for the T21 concept, although I think they were designed around the same time.
  11. waterbear
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    waterbear Junior Member

    The freeboard on the Tiki 21 isn't just a little lower, it's A LOT lower. The Tiki doesn't even have room to sit up straight without the hatch open. Woods' Janus has 4ft of headroom, enough to sit up straight on a portable toilet.

    If you modified the Tiki to be as functional as Richard Woods' boats it would lose it's svelte good looks.

    Angélique likes this.
  12. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Rob Denny's boats are superb. He has really developed his build techniques to an extremely high level. Having said that like so many other designers he's gone for contemporary looks and my origional question was about more traditionally styled boats.

    Waterbear, that is a fascinating picture and I've not seen a profile for acorn vs janus before. I am shocked it is higher but tbat would explain the slightly awkward proportions of the cabin to hull. Assuming your drawing is accurate the lack of headroom in the tiki 21 is truly shocking.

    Jamez janus I guess isn't THAT much bigger than acorn but it's a lot bigger than a T21. As always with Wharram you have to look at the waterline and a T21 is 18'6". Janus is 20'. Acorn is 21' on the water same as a pahi 26!!! Funny!

    I've got some door skins and if I get time I'l build a model 1:5 or something and see what's possible.
  13. Dejay
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    Not the boat you are looking for nor the style, but I found this Pennywise power trimaran by kastenmarine yesterday. I think a good example and inspiration of how modern design choices can be married to a traditional visual style.
  14. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    rwatson and Doug Lord like this.

  15. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Richard Woods initially worked for James Wharram, and I think that Richard sailed trans-atlantic with him on his 51' cat Tehini in the 70's.
    IMHO, Richard's designs must be some of the best that have 'evolved' from the original Wharram philosophy.
    I think that you can only go so far re modifying a Tiki 21 before it turns into something else (like an Acorn or a Wizzer or a Kelsall or...…)
    I sailed with Richard once on his original Eclipse cat (she was deceptively fast, and very comfortable), and I long had dreams of building one of his Gypsy designs (but then other things got in the way).
    He is a nice chap, and he posts on here occasionally - maybe send him a note and see what he thinks about your proposal?
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