A 12' micro cruiser called "C" Bee ...

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by kengrome, Jun 14, 2008.

  1. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 718
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 305
    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    This boat is being designed / discussed in another forum but I thought I would introduce it here for questions, comments, etc. since I like the concept so much. Here's the design brief in a nutshell:

    - Very small -- no longer than 12' -- and well ballasted with a center cockpit.

    - Original drawing shows a round bilge but for building simplicity and low cost multi-chine construciton is okay.

    - Tall, comfortable wheelhouse aft cabin to which all sheets can be lead for warm, dry sailing in inclement weather.

    - Strictly a one person boat for potentially quite long coastal cruises, although it could handle a crew of two for day trips.

    - Engineless, except for the possiblility of a trolling motor, and would be fitted with oarlocks although she couldn't be expected to row all that well.

    - Plumb bow and transom for maximum interior space and because the designer likes the character and style of this type of hull.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I've attached some additional images below -- new freeship renderings of my latest version of this boat. The red lines in the images below are the waterlines:

    lower waterline = 15 inches draft from keel bottom @ 1100 pounds displacement
    upper waterline = 18 inches draft from keel bottom @ 1660 pounds displacement

    Comments and suggestions welcome ... :)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Greenseas2
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 49
    Location: USA

    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Not large enough

    This is defintely a neat little boat for the home builder, but I would suggest that a little greater length (perhaps 18 feet) would provide sufficient room for use of the V-berth as well as a mini galley and head. Also, having a mast that folds down similar to the new cat boat masts would be beneficial for transport and for folding the mast to go under bridges.
     
  3. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 718
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 305
    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    Hi Greenseas2,

    I agree that making it longer would make it better, but the designer really wants to stick with this very short length, so 12 feet is all we have to work with.

    I haven't seen how the new catboat masts fold down, are you referring to a tabernacle?
     
  4. Eralnd44
    Joined: Oct 2006
    Posts: 68
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -38
    Location: Eurohut

    Eralnd44 Wanderer


    Probably, my biggest concern is the windage to sail area relationship. I get that the designer is going for a character driven nautical take. I think this little boat has achieved that goal. However, it would seem that the salty looking man-cabin is going to add some really significant windage problems for the boat, which will impair the sailing ability to windward. An impairment that may not be overcome by the trolling motor, should this little dude be stuck in tough conditions near a leeshore.

    Catboats already exhibit some tendency to round-up when pressed, or hit by a gust. By adding this cabin well aft and giving it vertical sides, that tendency will be enhanced. This will make for a boat that will need to have the sheets eased in order to keep it under control. Eased sheets will reduce the potential drive and here comes that leeshore idea again.

    If it were mine, I'd move the rig aft some and angle the front of the man-cabin/cupola so that it has something like less windage. Some observations of the small craft done by Matt Layden would show the relationships that work well.

    If those things were done to this boat and the windage was seriously reduced, then it makes the whole, trolling motor idea, a lot more feasible as a booster propulsion source to the rig for getting out of trouble.

    There just isn't much you can do in 12' when you have to deal with the physical size of a full-grown man and you want to go to far away places. (I have a take on tiny boats for big journeys, but that will be for another thread)
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Greenseas2
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 49
    Location: USA

    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Hinged mast

    The mast that was refered to is more of a hinged mast than a tabernacle type. Look on Yachtworld.com at the Com-pac 20 foot Horizon catboat and the Com-pac 17 foot Sun Cat and you can see the hinged mast.
     
  6. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 718
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 305
    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    What do you think about adding a mizzen mast and sail?
     
  7. dcstrng
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 6
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Colonial Beach, VA

    dcstrng Junior Member

    First, I’m no designer, so use a huge grain of salt…

    I like the lines and am partial to the concept, but share the concern of others regarding the windage of the pilot house… makes it look quite shippy and certainly appears robust, but I’d be inclined to try something along the lines of Serge Testa’s, Acrohc Australis, if there is any hope of inshore coastal work… Admittedly, Acrohc (even though it completed a circumnavigation) has no where near the character of your rendering, but all that “glass” not only appears vulnerable to breaking seas, but is likely to catch its fair share of wind… Cockpit I like… if it fills, it’ll not change the CG a whole lot, which also makes it quite useable (although cutting into the interior a tad…).

    Really like cruisers this general size and sketch `em up from time to time – fortunately for both me and the world, I’ve never actually built one…
     
  8. Greenseas2
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 49
    Location: USA

    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Just two questions

    The first is how do you get in and out of the pilot house? Same question applies to the focs'l. I'm not sure that I would want to be the guy sleeping with the helmsman's butt in such close proximity.
     
  9. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 718
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 305
    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    This issue has been mentioned to the designer but he doesn't seem all that concerned about it. It is possible that he added the mizzen mast/sail to help alleviate the 'rounding up' problem inherent in most cat boats which (as Eralnd44 said) would be exaggerated with the house shown in these drawings.

    The designer knows about Acrohc Australis and doesn't like its physical appearance, that's why he is designing something new that he likes better ... :)

    Apparently the front window panel is also a door. The hatch shown on top might be changed to connect with the front door so the skipper can get in and out more easily.

    There's a hatch, but it's probably too small as shown so it may have to be enlarged. Anyways I think the front compartment is only meant to be reached into for storage, not climbed into.

    Don't worry you wouldn't be, it's a one-person boat ... :)
     
  10. dcstrng
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 6
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Colonial Beach, VA

    dcstrng Junior Member

    OK, wurks fer me...

    Good luck... would like to see a pic when its ready for prime-time...
     
  11. harlemriverman
    Joined: Oct 2005
    Posts: 128
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 182
    Location: New England

    harlemriverman Senior Member

    fun concept! torn between a keel and ballast. recommend reliable power and at least one pump.

    if i were thinking of a one-person blue water sailer, i'd start at 20' and be looking a yawl. bowspirt maybe but that's getting aggressive ... as much windage and dry storage as i could get. knee-jerk thoughts are a honda 25hp w/genset; carbon fiber with the equivalent of unibond or at least compartmentalized bilges with dual pumps; electronics / controls; inflatable lifeboat; etc... the survival basics.
     
  12. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 3,014
    Likes: 208, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1279
    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Kenneth;
    The boat is certainly "cute". Aside from that , for the announced purpose it is ill concieved. I can see this as an attractive novelty boat for sailing on protected lakes or ponds, maybe in a very small bay or estuary. For coastal work, it is a seriously unwise concept.

    The coastal cruiser will need several hundred pounds of provisions, you are using ballast, the boat will hopefully be built robustly enough to endure some bad times. All that adds up to a considerable total weight. The weight will need to be supported by adequate displacement, which means that the 12 footer will be either very wide or very deep or both. In that case it is almost surely a slow boat. I cannot think of a more impractical boat with which to run from an approaching storm. Or a more dangerous one.

    "The designer" is attached to this size of boat. Very well. That is understood. I acknowledge herewith, that the designer is entirely free to draw whatever he wishes. You have another active thread about tiny canoes. You have explained the reasons for building the canoe in very small lengths. Please tell us some of the actual reasons for wanting a 12 foot cruising boat.
     
  13. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
    Posts: 718
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 305
    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    Hi messabout,

    I don't want a 12' cruising boat myself, but the designer seems to want one. JimD is the designer, you can find more information about him and this boat by visiting his original thread here at the woodenboat forum:

    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80876

    I have always liked aft-wheelhouse boats for their character. I was intrigued to see such a short and cute one when I saw the designer's concept drawings for this boat. He seems to be trying to get a lot of features into a very small boat, and I find this to be a challenging exercise, and I enjoy a challenge!

    I have tried to get 'too many' features into some of my own designs so I know how difficult this can be. John Welsford designed his 13 foot Tread Lightly to have a similar purpose to C-Bee, but his boat is longer and lighter and of a different style:

    [​IMG]


    I have always enjoyed the 'minimalist' concept too. Therefore, since the designer's boat is even shorter than Tread Lightly I became interested in his concept ... and I thought that maybe some people here at boatdesign.net would like to see it as well so I created this thread.

    At one point I thought I might be able to find a way to get a small inboard engine installed in C-Bee, but after receiving the freeship file from the designer's friend I gave that up. If C-Bee were to have an outboard then an engine might make sense, but it doesn't make sense to use an inboard in this boat since it is too small already.

    I wouldn't mind having such a cute little 12 footer, but I would not take it coastal cruising unless it had a reliable outboard to keep me off a rocky lee shore. Even then I would only use it for overnight or weekend excursions in good weather, not week or month long cruises. The rest of the time it would be a fair weather 'dayboat with character' ... :)
     
  14. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 3,014
    Likes: 208, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1279
    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    The neat little bluff bowed boat, in the last posting, is a better deal than the one originally posted. The lug main and sprit boom mizzen make real sense for a boat this small. It has more character than the original too. It is Japanese Sampan like.

    You may be familiar with the Bolger Micro. It is a boxy little beast that is very small like these designs. Although Micro is butt ugly it does perform very well and can survive in some pretty nasty weather. I have sailed on one of the ghastly things and I can attest to its' performance which is beyond what might be reasonably expected from such a small boat and far beyond expectations for a boat that looks like a box. Bolger is a very clever old dude who takes considerable joy in doing designs from way out in left field. What is so interesting, is how well most of them work.

    Tell your designer guy to forget the cabin aft thingy and build the one you have in the last post. While you are at it tell him to make it longer too. Tell him also to study the San Francisco Pelican,a tough as nails little boat that has a long history of good result in a notoriously treacherous body of water. If the new boat is to sail out of Cebu, then it is messing around in the Phillipine Sea which I suspect can be a high adventure.
     

  15. harlemriverman
    Joined: Oct 2005
    Posts: 128
    Likes: 7, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 182
    Location: New England

    harlemriverman Senior Member

    nice micro!
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.