90 x 90 Race Multi

Brian,

This BYM piece is trash. The boat is NOT square, it is "a bit narrower than square". The BOR 90 is 105 x 90. If either BYM News or Marc Lombard had bothered to look at the boat before the interview they would have known this. If you look at the boat and the relationship of CG to CB it is quite obvious that she has loads of safety margin as far as diagonal stability is concerned.

Lombard is a smart guy, but this saounds likt a bit of sour grapes. He was not chosen by either team as their designer.

BYM "news" is an Alinghi press release blog.

 

What races were you watching?

In all the races in IACC boats since 1992, how many have been close or tactical? 3? 5?

AC32 was marked by races with large separations, not close racing and tactics.

You seem to be crying for the old men in their slow boats, the fact is that racing in IACC's was worse than racing in 12's, racing in the new AC90 will be worse yet.

You really should read the deed of gift, it is a two boat race. It is a design contest first, and a sailing race second.

I liked watching the 12's, I predicted that the IACC boats would be worse match racing platforms that the 12's from day one.

The events you are crying about are not what the deed intended. There is not one thing keeping all these teams from getting together and racing their boats. Why don't they? They don't want to race and win, they don't sail out of passion for the sport, they sail so they can be part of an event. Most of the teams are a waste of time and carbon fibre. The Cup will be better of without them.

 

Well That's an opinion, but how come the AC 32 campaign was the biggest commercial success ever in the history of the cup?

It is just a very relaxing thing to look at and most of the people want that in their leisure. Although I am looking forward to the exciting DoG match between BWWO and Alinghi, but it’s dangerous and I hope they know what they are doing.

I always suggest to give every crewmember of the giant cats a parachute that will open automatically in case of a launch. That won’t help in case you are standing next to a stay but okay, most intelligent yachtsmen know that.

That will make intelligent advertisement, A 100 mln cat that crashes and all crewmembers comes dwarfing down on a parachute. Bit a waste of time, money and carbon?

I am looking forward to your opinion in this.

 

The commercial success was due to one thing ... the venue was put out to bid. Valencia paid to host the Cup. Valencia paid ACM more than ACM paid the teams. ACM lost money on running the event.

I very much enjoyed being in Valencia for AC32. I spent about $30,000 for the vacation.

I very much liked the 12's.

What you or I like and what the Deed says the Cup is might be different things. The deed was intended to create a race between two boats of different design. The deed was not written to create close racing.

What we will see *if* the big multi's face off will be very much what the deed intends.

I was out on the water yesterday and watched as the boat was being sea-trialled with the main at full hoist and the biggest headsail we've seen so far. The boat is very impressive. From a distance she looks like a big sloop, as you get closer it appears as if 2x the wind speed is a very relaxing pace for her. In wind speeds that would have a 12 or IACC boat sitting still, the BOR 90 is sailing right along. The AC32 race that was almost cancelled due to light wind, would see this boat doing 10-15 knots.

In a design contest it is hard not to like better performance.

As far as the safety aspect goes, all sailors take risks. The risks are not unknown. These boats are not going to flip on their own. It will take an error in seamanship to flip one. From what I've seen this boat has a larger safety margin than many boats. Unlike the offshore boats that have gone over while racing in 30+ knot breeze and waves, this boat will probably never be sailed hard in those conditions. I think the risk of capsize or pitchpole is very low.

 

What about liability

What happens when Couts and Spithill crashes and dies. Who are responsible; the yachtsmen or the designers?. I am a designer and safety first is something that is not disputed in my field.

In this forum and in Sailing Anarchy as well I ventilated the opinion the responsible EB and LE to let make a Hazardous Operation Analyses by Lloyds, or Det Norske Veritas and preferably both.

Although I must agree that the Gitana team run by B de R seems to have everything under control. I guess they would win the Dog Fight but they are not invited. It would be nice if Gitana 13 would show up and both pass them during the match. Sorry only dreaming....

We will see what happens. Although when it goes wrong I'll never look at Maxi cats in my life. Guess it 's a hazardous sport and AC cup isn't.
That's what I like about America's cup in the current configuration. And the New 90 feet mono's seems to be very nice to look at double the speed of wind as you said so. I like the TP 52's and the RC 44 as well. They are so smooth....

Most of my friends went to do the wild catamaran thing and one almost died when he was being taken from behind by a much faster competitor during national championship in Dart.
He broke his jaw, was unconscious and almost drowned. I stayed in the nice dragons although I didn't like the fact of the long-keel which makes the thing very slow on the tiller.

 

Don't be silly.

Do designers get blamed every time someone dies in a automobile crash?

Do designers get blamed when a pilot exceeds the design envelope and flies an aeroplane into the ground?

Almost every vehicle related crash has human error as the root cause. If the design limits are exceeded, failure is to be expected. If the design is experimental, the predicted limits have to be verified by controlled testing. This is just what BOR is doing and what test pilots do with new designs. No one is sending anyone out into the unknown unprepared.

Why do you feel the need to make the statement that you are a designer and safety first is your goal? What does that have to do with racing multi-hulls? Are you trying to say that your *opinion* and *your* personal risk comfort level makes you able to state that fast boats are unsafe?

What do you design?

 

Yes, Schakel. just what do you design? You come across as one of those sniffy and righteous safety dingalings - one can only guess from your commentary, that your end product "design" is extremely dull and boring - and probably ugly too.

 

Flying with help from experienced skipper & crew

Based in Anacortes on the west coast of the United States since 21st August 2008, the skipper of the Groupama Trimarans and his team are full of praise aboard the 90 foot trimaran BMW Oracle designed by the French architects VPLP. After the initial sail trials, Franck Cammas gives us his take on events.

'This trimaran is the only one of its kind. She is fairly extreme and has enormous potential. We're gradually taming her'. Designated as helmsman by Russell Coutts, the triple winner of the America's Cup, during these initial outings, the skipper of Groupama has been collaborating with the American Team as a coach and consultant for over a year.

On the water, the power emitted by this trimaran which is over one and a half times the size of Groupama 2 is impressive. As wide as it is long at 27.5 metres, equipped with a mast which culminates at 50 metres high, a 500 m2 mainsail and a 700 m2 gennaker, she is designed to sail close to the shore in mild conditions.
On deck, the twenty or so crew are kitted out with helmets. At the helm, Franck Cammas is discovering 'a very pleasant boat which slips along nicely. During our first beat the crew were very tense'.
As the hours went by though, in a very light breeze, the cosmopolitan crew familarised themselves with the monster: 'There are three French sailors aboard including Bruno Laurent who, as is the case aboard Groupama 2, is the boat captain, and also Thierry Fouchier, the headsail trimmer, who has been sailing in our team since 1998'.

'Though some of the crew are only just discovering multihull sailing during these initial trials, it's a bit different for us. My discovery is centred more on being a team and learning another way of working. It's a very enriching experience' adds the skipper of the Groupama trimarans, who continues: 'This experience is very beneficial for our team as we're going to be able to transpose part of this knowledge onto Groupama 3, which is in the process of being reconstructed at the Multiplast yard in Vannes'.

Another member of the Groupama team present in the United States for the past two months, Jean-Marc Normant has been following the end of the construction of the BMW Oracle trimaran: 'It has been manufactured to a remarkably high standard. There has been great attention to detail despite the very tight timing; the work taking just nine months.' The project is something that the head of Groupama's design office, Loïc Dorez, has had a great deal of involvement in, particularly during the design phase; thus enabling the BMW Oracle Team to save precious time.

It now remains for the discovery to continue: 'We're going about it very progressively. Everyone is highly concentrated and rigorous as they're aware of the risks linked to the power of the boat and the sail surface.'

With a surface area equivalent to that of two basketball courts, the black and white trimaran is continuing to fill the crew with wonder. All they have to do now is to get the very best out of their steed in view of the duels which may take place if the New York Court of Appeal decides the trimaran event will go ahead in 2009.

 

There are over 1500 (!!) photos here:

http://www.bymnews.com/photos/thumbnails.php?album=240

 

Look at the twist in the platform! Never seen a big tri with noticeable twist -much less that much:

 

...some comments from another forum

What you are seeing (torsional flex) is probably just perspective distortion caused by a very wide angle lens. Shot 4 shows even more of this where stbd hull seems to be going straight and port ama is heading at 30 degrees across the shot. But look at shot 3 for a view where it was taken from further away and there is no distortion present.

Evan
__________________________________________________________
I'm not referring to bending (would be visible in a plan view), but rather torsional flex (best visible in a profile view). The leeward ama is running level in the water; the windward ama is down ~2 degrees at the bow. That's a lot in one of these boats--especially in these very light winds. It may only be a matter of rig tuning (a lightweight multi's rig is instrumental in hull stiffness, counter-intuitively--just ask Bill)

Dave
________________________________________________________
On boat that big with only two beams would have to be incredibly stiff not to twist at all holding that rig up, imagine what happens when the wind is stronger. I suspect because the boat is so long and the ama is much deeper hull forward than aft that it looks worse than it is. Do they use "detwisters" or are the carbon beams stiff enough right through the expected wind ranges? Bill will know what detwisters are as I am sure Afterburner has, them.

Tim
_______________________________________________________
Yes we do, running fore stays to the bow tips to prevent wracking tip droop
in hull flying and larger sea conditions.

Bill
Afterburner

 

Surely it isn't something the design team can't fix

That is what the trails are for isn't it. Pretty sure it isn't something the design team can't fix. Exciting! Most beautiful tri I have ever seen.
Its elegant unlike Groupama what I thought was a monster.

But it's very feeble as well

 

Environmental project engineer

Scrubbers for heavy industry, power plants, and terminals for airports. And you are right they are somewhat ugly but all between the square girders and then finished by some architect so it looks good in the end. But that is only part of what I do. I glue all the engineering work together with tens of thousand of specs and hundreds of 3D drawings. In 5 versions that come back and that has to be revised again. Especially the environmental projects prolong the lives of people wildlife and vegetation with a scale you can't imagine If you are not familiar in the field. It's not how it looks like but it the environmental impact that is the reason for the project. You have to be a bit existentialistic in your philosophy to do jobs like that. I studied philosophy for 20 years as well.

The amount of paper is monstrous. But I like it.




Not every engineer is so privileged to design the most beautiful things on earth: Yachts

I really like them. But I like Art and architecture as well.

 

Thanks for sharing that. I would agree, for the design work that you do, safety is a large factor.

For high performance designs, the standard is more like "as safe as possible." Unfortunately, safety has taken a back seat to performance is many cases. F1 was a good example. However the is a limit to how safe you can make a design. The key is that the operator take an active role and operate within the limits of the design. In many cases this requires a level of skill and training that make some designs 'unsafe' in unskilled hands.

I would agree, that the BOR90 would probably be 'unsafe' if I were sailing it with no training or experience. I don't think it is unsafe when compared to other experimental racing vehicles. It is not a charter boat taking paying tourists out on thrill rides, it is an extreme racing boat. The professional sailors that are sailing on it are taking reasonable care to insure their safety, as is the support crew. I was happy to see a chase boat with a suited up diver ready to go in case something went wrong. This is not a bunch of kids racing around over their heads.

It is yet to be seen how well two or more of these monsters can race against each other. It will certainly not be like anything we have seen before.

 

Why create a vortex?

Why is it so advantageous to create a vortex with the curved dagger boards?

Probably asked hundred times before. Since water in not compressible there is no aerodynamic involved and to my gut feeling it doesn't work.
There must be a very good reason for their presence aboard. I first though that if the both curved dagger boards were tilted backwards they would act as a hydrofoil but I do not have proof of that. And then again there must be hydrofoils on the rudder as well same as with the Moth.