80 foot cargo harryproa

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by lucdekeyser, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. Gringles
    Joined: Nov 2020
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    Location: Great lakes

    Gringles Junior Member

    That's pretty big of Harry Proa to pay for this islander project. I suppose that's why harry proa didn't worry about meeting the safety rules. After all, he's probably paying for all of it.
     
  2. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Well, someone has to say the obvious, this cargo proa is a pacific type. It's anybodys guess if the designer has converted, or if it's a one time deal forced by the circumstances, but the reality can not be denied. 6t of boat, 10t of cargo on the lee hull, this is not a weight to windward design.
     
  3. Gringles
    Joined: Nov 2020
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    Location: Great lakes

    Gringles Junior Member

    :rolleyes:
     
  4. Gringles
    Joined: Nov 2020
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    Location: Great lakes

    Gringles Junior Member

    Computer modeling has come a long way - computers can do more than make pretty pictures.
     
  5. rob denney
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    rob denney Senior Member

    Sorry for the delay. I am working 12 hour days on the boat and running Harryproa in the evenings. Fortunately, the build site is closed on the weekend, so I can go home and catch up.

    Gonzo re truss joins,
    Not yet. We are still working on the beams, which have no lengthwise joins. The lee hull will be built in 3 pieces, with simple joins. As with pretty much everything in the boat, the engineering will be done by a qualified composite engineer and checked by the Professor of Engineering in the School of Comp Eng and a couple of our volunteers who are studying composites. Then we build a 1/5th scale model which is tested either on our jig or at the Uni. There are pictures of some glass samples and the beam model test on Cargo Ferry Prototype – HARRYPROA http://harryproa.com/?p=3788 and Harryproa https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal

    Gringles re panel stiffeners,
    Before resorting to "stringers and bulkheads", we try to include seats, shelves, bridge deck, steps, bunks, beam sockets and other reinforcing. When more is required, we choose between hollow or foam filled stringers in the infusion, a truss frame or use C, L, T, O (hollow or solid) or Q stringers and ring frames.

    Rumars re materials and sheathed trusses,
    No problem building from polyester if that is what the end user wants. But for the prototype, I am doing it the way that suits me best, which is low cost epoxy.
    I will also be interested in the sheathed truss, although the sheathing is only enough to keep the water out, so it is thin in relation to the truss members. The skins will be glued and glassed to the truss. Access to the inside of the lee hull is one of the reasons for using the truss. Another is the simplicity of joining trusses together.
    One of the limiting factors with the beam is the buckling load on the lower member. Instead of beefing this up, we have looked at other ways of reducing the unsupported span of the members which has lead to ideas to reduce the cost and weight.

    Gringles re weight,
    Please tell me more about the "ladder configuration" for stringers and how it compares to zig zag, 0/90 and others. We have tried half a dozen different layouts to see which one suits best. Drives the purists nuts when they realise the stringer pattern on one side of the hull is different to the other. ;-)
    The hull structure is heavier overall than if it was foam. However, if it was foam that could take the hammering solid glass does, it would be heavier. So it depends how you define "strength". This boat is designed to be regularly beached on crumbled coral foreshores and, compared to most cruisers, abused.
    The extra weight will slow the boat down, but the ww hull panels weigh about 40 kgs each. There are 5 of them, plus ring frames, some more stiffening and bunk bases to come, so maybe 400 kgs/900 lbs all up for a hull which is 12m/40' long, with 2 cosy doubles, galley and nav station. All the weight is in the right place for righting moment. The lee hull with truss will weigh a bit, but has to carry the rig, steering and leeway loads, plus up to 10 tonnes of cargo. I suspect that foam would be redundant, even without the truss. We will be analysing this before we build it.

    Eric re responsibility and cost,
    The analysis is being done. The Uni guys are doing the numbers and testing the models. However, it is my boat, for me, so I am taking the opportunity to try out all the ideas I have never had the opportunity to, and because I am working with some pretty smart people, they are also throwing their thoughts into the ring.
    Bottom line: If nothing breaks, they are the brains who ensured it wouldn't. If anything breaks, it is my fault, my problem and my job to fix it. This will be pretty easy with the layouts, laminates, shapes etc we are using. The Uni wants me to continue building stuff in their shed to show the students what is possible and to give them some hands on experience. Therefore, building new or replacement parts won't be a problem. Based on my history, the problem will be using what I have instead of building the next iteration.;-)
    It is certainly cheaper to build solid. I pay $US24/sqm for 20mm H100 PET (recyclable and tougher than conventional H80) foam, which, wet out (another $6) weighs 2.8 kgs per sq m. This is the weight of infused 1800 gsm glass, which costs about $2/sqm for the glass and $13 for the resin. All plus about 25% for shipping and tax. The foam in many places needs at least this amount of laminate to withstand the abuse.

    Russel re weight and simplicity,
    We started in July, have built the 28' catamaran tender, a 12m hull, the rudders/daggerboards, the 8m x 1m x 0.5m toybox and will build the cockpit floor next week. The harryproa enthusiast who is helping me built the rudders (very nice) and spends most of his time building models and samples for the Uni to analyse. The student volunteers are still learning the ropes, but most of them are not native english speakers, have never been on a sail boat, never used hand or electric tools and know nothing about practical epoxy. We have built everything on a 12m/40' x 1.2m/4' table and the components are mostly self aligning. The furniture, bulkheads and ring frames are all straight and either vertical or horizontal, so easy to install and there is minimal cutting, grinding and fairing. So, yeah, pretty simple.
    You seriously don't think a 6 tonne/ton 80' multihull capable of carrying 10 tonnes of freight is light?

    Gringles re pedantics and scope,
    I design boats for their purpose. Harryproas come in all sizes and types. Whatever works best.
    The cargo is carried on the leeward hull, the crew quarters and passengers on the windward one. Except, on the prototype, there will be no passengers as it is too expensive to meet the requirements.
    Michael wrote his excellent article after reading about the Harryproa cargo proa.
    The small boat in the Marshalls was not a prototype for the big one. It had a different set of requirements, one of which was a local rig. As it turned out, this was a good choice for a number of reasons, not least of which was the skill of the locals.
    The "scope of the project" is an opportunity for me to try a lot of ideas (both mine and other people's) so that when/if I use them on the cruising (or racing) Harryproas, or if more cargo proas are built, I know they work. It is a boat which will give remote villagers an alternative to the dangerous, unreliable and polluting options they now have. However, this will not happen until it is extensively tested. It is also a boat for me to cruise the Pacific in, maybe race it if the situation permits.
    The French cargo prao was one of the boats that inspired the Harryproa cargo proa.
    Danielle, Lynx and Ceiba are amazing, way out of my league in size, capacity, organisation, doing good and fund raising. However, Ceiba would not work on the routes we are interested in and their economic forecasts are just that.
    Business is good, so I am paying for it. Partly to check out some ideas, mostly to give something back to a region and people who have been pretty good to me and are in a bit of strife at the moment. The plan is to give the boat to a village after 3 years of demos.
    I am not looking for donations, grants, sponsorships or the paperwork and gabfests they entail, although I will happily accept any (ie the UQ set up), and things may change as the project proceeds. I will offer some suppliers (solar panels, batteries) an opportunity to test and advertise their products, in exchange for a discount, but this is habit rather than necessity. The scope for demonstrating and selling solar electricity to replace village level diesel powered gen sets is probably even larger than that for green shipping.
    Having a great time was not in the original plan, but I am having one. Teaching an enthusiastic bunch of young, intelligent adults from varying backgrounds, organising a major project and brainstorming with some exceptional people is huge fun and strongly recommended to anyone thinking about getting old or their legacy.
    On the down side, I do the dirty dusty jobs with sharp/rotating tools novices shouldn't handle. Fortunately, there is only a little of this, and I do it before and after work, so it is almost therapeutic. Almost.

    Gonzo re profitability,
    Depending on the arrangements and the rules, future cargo proas may run at a loss, but will be cheaper than the subsidised ships used now, so the Govts will be better off. As will the environment and the people who get jobs building them, those who get a regular shipping service and those who are not forced to travel in the banana boats.
    The prototype will not run at a loss as it is a demonstrator and will not be charging for it's services, nor incurring any expenses, beyond those I wish to spend.
     
  6. Gringles
    Joined: Nov 2020
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    Location: Great lakes

    Gringles Junior Member

    I'm very interested in hearing more about the reinforcement configurations you tried and tested.
     
  7. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Sorry, but this sounds like an oxymoron. How can you prevent a loss in a business by not charging for services?
     
  8. lucdekeyser
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    lucdekeyser Senior Member

    I understand it to mean that the demonstrator has no customer paying for services such that the expenses for the demonstrator spent by the producer are part of the cost of doing business but there is no loss to the business of the customer as he will not be charged for services rendered. It is not an oxymoron, just a mix of contexts. It is like when a dealer has a potential customer test drive a car. The test is part of the cost of sales.
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I agree with you. However, he claims they are not incurring any expenses because they are not charging for the services; that makes no sense. All they incur are expenses.
     
  10. Tiny Turnip
    Joined: Mar 2008
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    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    A profit making business is the wrong model here.

    Harryproa (with co-operation from the University) are funding the prototype project as R&D, with, I'm sure, an eye to it as a loss leader with the possibility of opening up future markets.

    Future building and running of cargo harryproas would also not be profit making, but funded/supported by government and/or third sector organisations.
     
  11. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    That is the only way they could function.
     
  12. Gringles
    Joined: Nov 2020
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    Location: Great lakes

    Gringles Junior Member

    3d sector organizations interested in low budget cargo ships?
     
  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    It will never be a low budget cargo ship. However, because of the "green" label, it will attract people willing to donate money and labor. It may also get government grants because it is good political currency.
     
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  14. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Simply being 'green' is very valuable indeed in this field - The 28 metre steel Schooner Ruth (designed by Tom Colvin) took 15 years to build here, on the beach, and her owner managed to get all kinds of grants from the European Union and other organisations to help fund her construction because of his stated intention to carry cargo under sail between the islands like the old timber schooners used to do, and do sail training as well.
    Here is her website
    Schooner Ruth | Barbados' Sailing Ambassador http://www.schoonerruth.com/
    And a brief mention on Tom Colvin's page -
    fishing schooners https://web.archive.org/web/20060208201839/http://www.thomasecolvin.com/fish%20schooners.htm

    The sailing cargo vessel Ceiba is currently being built in the forest in Costa Rica, and I think that most of the funding is probably coming from folk who are enamoured with the romantic idea of carrying cargo under sail again.
    SAILCARGO INC. — Clean Ocean Cargo https://www.sailcargo.org/

    The futuristic cargo ship made of wood https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201117-clean-shipping-the-carbon-negative-cargo-boats-made-of-wood
     

  15. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    As I understand it, this is not a prototype, only a proof of concept for a cargo proa. Almost everything that is used in the design and build is not usefully scalable for series production. The actual boat will serve as a demonstrator for the "yacht" side of the business and hopefully generate some plan sales. From an economic perspective it's construction is "marketing". Some of the engineering, build space and labour is provided by a university, so the designer does not have to actually pay for everything related to the boats construction. The actual demonstration voyages will be subsidized by 3d parties willing to experiment with sail cargo, at no cost to the designer. I understand why the designer says it's a net win even before the boat is buildt. For him it's a win/win situation, he generates free publicity for his designs, and ends up owning a boat for less money then what it would have taken otherwise.
     
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