65m as Pleasure craft possible?

Discussion in 'Class Societies' started by Made In Germany, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Made In Germany
    Joined: Jan 2014
    Posts: 1
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Germany

    Made In Germany New Member

    Hi,

    we have a client who may proceed building a 60m+ vessel with us.
    While we will advise him to built to MCA & Commercial class with RINA, the client is nevertheless interested to built & use it as purely private pleasure vessel.
    The crew would be professional yacht crew but the yacht would never go into charter.

    It is clear, that there are implications on resale value & insurance if he would proceed like that.

    As I have serious doubts on the above, here come my questions:

    1)
    Would it be possible at all, to built, class & operate such a big vessel purely private?
    As added info RINA pleasure yacht rules concern themselves only with structural issues and contain no sections on guardrail heights, visibility, sillheights....
    2)
    Would that permit us to ignore some/or all of the typical rules for commercial classed vessels?

    Precisely the following:
    -SOLAS
    -MCA LY III
    -MLC
    -LLC

    3)
    Can the number of 12 passengers be exceeded in this case?
    4)
    Has someone done this before? What was the name of the vessel? Under which flag did it operate?

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    I just need some second opinions on this, I do think personally, that this will be hardly possible.
     
  2. Hamish_A
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: UK

    Hamish_A Member

    I think the simple answer is no for all.

    As i understand anything over 24m has to comply with SOLAS and LLC. As such it can be arrested by the port state if it enters port.

    Also you will end up with employment law problems as the crew have a right safe working conditions and it can be argues a ship not meeting these regulations is unsafe.

    I'm sure some others will have an opinion but if the client insists on preceding without the applied codes youll need a water tight contract to protect yourselves when the client hits all these problems
     
  3. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 431
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 83
    Location: GulfCoast

    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    With enough money, you could operate the QUEEN MARY 2 as a private yacht.

    This article contains a list of the largest private yachts:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_yachts_by_length

    The owner must comply with flag state regulations. If he does not sail his yacht on an international voyage, the applicability of SOLAS and the LL regulations would be doubtful.

    If the owner is not carrying passengers for hire, he can cram as many guests aboard as the boat will hold.

    The owner can build whatever kind of yacht he wishes, but the prudent naval architect will design a vessel which is reasonable and practical in light of past experience with similar vessels.

    If the vessel is classed and insured, the classification authorities and the underwriters are not going to accept an unseaworthy vessel, regardless of what is written in their rules.
     
  4. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,896
    Likes: 70, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 739
    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Technically sure you could do it, but it would be amazingly expensive, even when considering the cost of a normal 65m yacht.

    Just a few things come to mind...

    1) insurance would likely be impossible to get at any price
    2) legal costs from injured crew and passengers would be an almost foregone conclusion (at least in the US)
    3) many yards capable of repair may refuse the job outright or charge more
    4) many crew would be unwilling to work on such a vessel. Particularly the more experienced ones
    5) a NA may be unwilling to be attached to such a job
    6) at the end of the day the vessel will have no residual value. I doubt you could sell it for more than a small fraction of what it's worth.

    All these and more. It may be possible but I would suggest it would be a very expensive mistake.
     
  5. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 431
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 83
    Location: GulfCoast

    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    I don't know if there is such a thing as a 'normal' 65 m yacht. The wiki article doesn't indicate that there are that many yachts of that size in the world.

    Clearly, these vessels are not going to be bought through a broker. They will most likely be custom built. Trinity Yachts on the US Gulf Coast has built at least several vessels approaching this size in the past.

    A yacht this size is going to be handled like a small ship. You don't buy insurance thru normal channels and you don't add the vessel to your homeowner's policy. You are going to get P&I insurance through a big underwriter like Lloyds, which will probably entail having the vessel built to class under Lloyds Register of Shipping class rules or similar. If the vessel has to go to a yard for repairs, it's not going to be hauled out at a marina, it's going to a shipyard. There may be some subcontractors required to handle the cosmetic work which a commercial vessel wouldn't require.

    Like I said initially, with enough money, anything is possible. Someone looking for a 65m yacht has a lot of zeroes in his net worth. You want a good crew, you've got to pay them. The superyachts don't run themselves, and no one is going to use his cousins to crew it. That's why if you are King This and Sultan of That, you don't have crew problems.

    There are several yards around the world which are involved in this market. Feadship, Lurssen, and others apparently don't have a problem catering to their customer's desires.
     
  6. Emerson White
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 95
    Likes: 6, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 61
    Location: Nordland, WA, USA

    Emerson White Junior Member

    NSA, are there any yachts of that size at all that do not comply with SOLAS, for instance? Even those belonging to King of this and Sultan of that all seem to comply to my knowledge.


    If the issue is a minor one you might be able to get a variance. The Disney Cruise ships do not comply with SOLAS because their life boats are the wrong color, but they do because they have cubic dollars which they spent lobbying to get permission to go with their high visibility Disney yellow instead of the normal high visibility dayglow orange.
     
  7. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 431
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 83
    Location: GulfCoast

    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    It all depends on what the owner plans to do with his 65m pleasure boat.

    If he doesn't plan to charter it, use it on an international voyage, charge for passengers, I don't think you can make SOLAS apply, unless the flag state regulations prescribe so.

    SOLAS Reg. 1(a) Unless expressly provided otherwise, the present regulations apply only to ships engaged on international voyages.

    and

    SOLAS Reg. 3(a) The present regulations, unless expressly provided otherwise, do not apply to (v) Pleasure yachts not engaged in trade.

    I don't know what specifically applies to the term 'not engaged in trade' as I have not thoroughly researched the meaning of this term.

    Having quoted the Regulations, that is not to say that it wouldn't be a good idea to apply SOLAS to the design: it all goes back to what the owner is willing to pay for.
     
  8. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 431
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 83
    Location: GulfCoast

    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    The big boy on the wiki list, the Azzam, reportedly is equipped with its own missile defense system. The vessel is intended to be chartered, so I would imagine it meets SOLAS in addition to being able to shoot down incoming missiles.

    Reportedly, this vessel cost more than US$600 million to build and the charter rate is approx. US$2.6 million per week. Operating costs are estimated to be US$60 million p.a.
     
  9. Murat124
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 73
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -8
    Location: ─░stanbul

    Murat124 Junior Member

    Engaged in trade or not any boat/ship with length over than 50m is subject to SOLAS passenger,cargo,pleasure(12 passengers or less) or it should be like this

    End
     
  10. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 431
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 83
    Location: GulfCoast

    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    Not according to SOLAS Reg. 3(a)(v). Pleasure craft not engaged in trade are specifically exempted from SOLAS. See the SOLAS regulations. Also, if the vessel is not on an international voyage, SOLAS will not apply unless the flag state requires it.
     
  11. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 1,138
    Likes: 33, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 155
    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    I'm sure most folks hereabouts would like to be able have these problems when it comes to their boats or ones they want to build....
     
  12. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
    Likes: 129, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2369
    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    Forget whether you can or not - why on earth would you want to? Resale of a non-classified large yacht will be infinitely lower than the additional cost involved in getting class approval in the 1st place. Indeed it may be virtually impossible to sell...
     
  13. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 1,138
    Likes: 33, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 155
    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    Depends on if having greatly reduced value affects how it might be considered, for example, as part of an estate ... or rather that might be one possible reason. Moreover, the way gift taxes are set up sometimes -- the giver is responsible to pay taxes -- it may also be affecting by this if someone were to divide ownership, either all at once or year by year, among their family while they were still alive. I'm not saying either would be the case but depending on the letter of relevant laws either could be the case.

    And more power to them if it were so.
     
  14. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 431
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 83
    Location: GulfCoast

    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    Getting classed is one thing, but meeting SOLAS is a whole 'nother animal.
     

  15. powerabout
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 2,901
    Likes: 61, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 719
    Location: Melbourne/Singapore/Italy

    powerabout Senior Member

    65m yacht, I would think resalewould be the issue here
    Go class and mca like all the others
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.