60ft oak on oak restoration project

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by kwerkus, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. SukiSolo
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,270
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 271
    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    As /\ , the real benefit with timber is partly thermal insulation, like a thick foam core. The so called 'breathing' is more a result of the natural thermal properties which actually make wooden boats quite pleasant on the sea with less condensation. However this does not nullify ensuring there are no hidden places for water to gather and rot stuff away out of sight.
     
  2. kwerkus
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: UK South Coast

    kwerkus Junior Member

    Thank you for the informative & compelling reply, seems entirely logical, I'll plan to replace the deck this way (although I'm yet to decide on whether to add a sacrificial wooden deck atop the sealed ply one).

    Much obliged, thanks again.
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 476, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Your desire to have a wood veneer over the sub deck is certainly possible. Again, as I previously mentioned, it's best if over plywood, sheathed in a couple of layers of relatively light cloth 6 - 10 ounces (200 - 340 GSM). The solid wood overlay (if teak) is functional, as the best under wet foot traction you can get and of course beautiful.
     
  4. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 14,557
    Likes: 684, Points: 123, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    If wood "breathed" like these people claim, water would seep through the planks. I wonder when that goofy notion started.
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 476, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I suspect the fellow that thought wood needed to breath, was talking about wood's movement with environmental changes. In this case it does breath, but as a rule, traditional framed boats are designed to work with natural movement, usually resisting it or arranging grain, so it doesn't open a joint or other attachment/alignment.

    There are lots of examples of this, such as using vertical or quarter sawn planking on a carvel, so the wood can swell and seal the seams, but not so much that it cups the planking or pops it's butt joints, like would happen if flat sawn lumber is used in the planking.

    Also he could have been talking about the boat "panting", which is something you really want to avoid and is indicative a much bigger issues with the structure.
     
  6. kwerkus
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: UK South Coast

    kwerkus Junior Member

    deck nail nightmares

    G'day,

    I'll try to post some pics soon; this is a big ol' project, likely to take at least a couple of years :eek:

    She has been lying afloat exposed to the elements and the deck leaks like a colander, so the first task was to jury-rig a giant tent over the entire boat in an effort to keep the weather out & help prevent further deterioration until she can be moved ashore.

    The tent is now complete and I've started to remove the interior and tons of rubbish on board (amazing how much useless crap there is!). Once she's on hardstanding I'll have the pleasure of dealing with her deck nails -please see attached pic below. The entire deck has to go, so it inconsequential if planks are damaged/destroyed during this process but I don't imagine these nails will pull easily in any case!!! Someone recommended using a car jack with a custom made claw to pull 'em, which sounds like it would take months:!:

    Does anyone have any tips/tricks on pulling these type deck nails? ...out of seasoned oak? Are there specialist tools (other than a standard nail puller) or should I just grind 'em off? Any other comments/thoughts are of course more than welcome/encouraged :)

    Cheers!
     

    Attached Files:

  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 476, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Those fasteners will not pull easily and trying to is silly, frankly. There are specialized mini hole saw looking things without the pilot bit, that can be used to drill around the head, down along the length of the fastener, so it can be broken free. This of course means frames and beams will need to be plugged, to restore integrity, but a hell of a lot easier then inventing a jacking claw, that will just break stuff.

    If the deck is spent, just cut out between the beams with a saw, removing the bulk of material, then focus on removing the remaining atop the beams, carlins, etc. Cutting off the fastener heads will permit you to use a much smaller diameter saw to remove the remaining shank. I've had to make these saws over the years, but there are a few now available commercially.
     
  8. keith66
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 326
    Likes: 19, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 168
    Location: Essex UK

    keith66 Senior Member

    A few years ago i bought some excellent Green Oak from Lenham Oak near Maidstone in Kent, they will cut what you want & are very reasonable on price.
     
  9. kwerkus
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: UK South Coast

    kwerkus Junior Member

    update

    Hi, I hope you're all well & having fun.

    It's been a little while since I posted, progress is being made, albeit a little slower than hoped in terms of the deck. This project is not for the impatient! A couple of developments led to a decision to tackle the deck whilst afloat, which meant moving her from the original mooring to somewhere more suitable/accessible. Not straight forward though of course, resulting in a change in the order of planned works.

    The new priority became the engine/running gear. It took a few weeks just to get unrestricted access to the engine (previous owner had blocked it in and built various structures around it, including a wet room complete with a full size bath) and once there, I drained the sump to discover it contained... >27 litres of water. The raw water seacock had been left open, the makeshift swan neck had dropped several inches and with the bilges full of water the boat sat an inch or two lower, the swan neck dipped just below the now raised waterline and water siphoned into the exhaust manifold, through the valve guides into the sump and from there around the entire engine lubrication system, displacing the oil into the bilge. No-one knows for certain when it was last run, but it was likely full of water for at least 3 years!

    Luckily though, the engine is a Gardner and the water wasn’t the salty type. It took a few weeks, several oil & filter changes, rewiring and servicing of the starter motor, repairs to the governor, flushing/bleeding of cooling & fuel systems, some new hoses, lots of turning over manually and incredibly, with a puff of smoke, she fired back into life! As the old advert went "any engine will get you to sea, but a Gardner will always get you home". Quite remarkable really. There is a video of her running for the first time here: https://youtu.be/sRX0f10Ojx0

    In late June the boat was moved up the tidal estuary under her own steam to a town Quay. It took two sets of spring tides to get her fully alongside and she is now comfortably in the mud (‘London caulking’), and I can now, finally, refocus on the deck.

    Per advice on this thread and elsewhere, I’ve opted for a ply (BS1088) subdeck sheathed with cloth/epoxy. I’ll then be gluing an additional layer of ply atop the sealed subdeck, with shallow grooves routed & filled with black seam compound to give the appearance of planking, as a sacrificial wooden deck to give a more traditional look/feel.

    So, to the questions! (The answers I’m currently leaning towards are in brackets after each question, but I’m open to other recommendations and very happy to hear your experiences/opinions!).

    1> How would you recommend I fix the ply subdeck to the oak deck beams? (screws + marine sealant)
    2> What fixings and/or adhesive/sealant would you recommend I use between deck & beams? (silicon bronze full body wood screws + sikaflex 291 or similar)
    3> Should I treat the beam top surfaces prior and if so, with what? (metallic wood primer or red lead primer)
    4> Should I treat/paint the underside of the deck prior to laying and if so, with what? (metallic primer)
    5> What type of cloth? (2 x layers 300gsm woven roving)
    6> What adhesive should I use to secure the sacrificial deck atop the subdeck? (epoxy, although it’s also been recommended I use a more flexible sealant such as sikaflex)

    Finally, I promised some photos and although I’m yet to upload them (hopefully next week sometime) there is one attached of her in the mud a couple of tides prior to reaching the quay wall. Others to follow in due course and I will post more often, if anyone is interested.

    Cheers and fair winds.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Nick.K
    Joined: May 2011
    Posts: 328
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 103
    Location: Ireland

    Nick.K Senior Member

    I enjoyed your engine video...

    You were asking about removing the deck nails. In the yard where I work we quite often replace sections of timber deck on old trawlers. Usually the deck planks are cut between the frames leaving short pieces on the frames. Sometimes the nails are loose enough that the blocks can be levered or banged off but otherwise the blocks are removed by splitting leaving the frames with the nails. A good trick to pull the nails is to knock them in a touch more with a smart bang with a heavy hammer, this breaks the bond and usually they can then be pulled with a three ft claw bar.
    Nick
     
  11. kwerkus
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: UK South Coast

    kwerkus Junior Member

    photo update

    Thanks Nick, will give your suggestion a bash (no pun intended) and let you know how it goes, could take a while though!

    As promised, here is a link to more photos, viewing not recommended for the faint of heart though :!: https://www.flickr.com/photos/142945623@N08/albums

    I've started ripping the rotten deck up now and will add some updated photos within the next couple of weeks.

    Further comments/recommendations/opinions re the below are invited/encouraged :)


    1> How would you recommend I fix the ply subdeck to the oak deck beams? (screws + marine sealant)
    2> What fixings and/or adhesive/sealant would you recommend I use between deck & beams? (silicon bronze full body wood screws + sikaflex 291 or similar)
    3> Should I treat the beam top surfaces prior and if so, with what? (metallic wood primer or red lead primer)
    4> Should I treat/paint the underside of the deck prior to laying and if so, with what? (metallic primer)
    5> What type of cloth? (2 x layers 300gsm woven roving)
    6> What adhesive should I use to secure the sacrificial deck atop the subdeck? (epoxy, although it’s also been recommended I use a more flexible sealant such as sikaflex)
     
  12. Nick.K
    Joined: May 2011
    Posts: 328
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 103
    Location: Ireland

    Nick.K Senior Member

    I think you may be biting off more than is possible to chew!
    You mentioned a surveyor in your first post. Was this a surveyor who is a specialist in wooden craft? The best surveyor you could have would be an experienced shipwright. Your photos show what appears to be wide spread rot and the rust streaks and very visible plank lines suggest that her fastenings are also letting go. Probably when you rip the deck and rotten hull planks you will find rot in the frames too in the faying surfaces.

    What facilities do you have for cutting and preparing large timber sections?

    I'd say to to have any hope of finishing with a vessel that could go places you should locate a friendly traditional boat yard who will be prepared to adopt you. It's possible if you have expert advice and someone to show you how (and maybe a decade set aside). It's certainly a beautiful hull... but worth it?
     
  13. kwerkus
    Joined: Sep 2015
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: UK South Coast

    kwerkus Junior Member

    Potentially... but worth a punt nevertheless.

    Yes, and numerous specialist shipwrights involved in large restoration projects locally are on hand to advise. The guys restoring "Vigilant" just along the quay from us have an even mightier task! http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/bought-vigilant-topsham/story-18402400-detail/story.html#1

    Yes, much to do: half a dozen frames sections require attention; at least a dozen planks replacing; some refastening planned. There are specialist shipwrights and yards available nearby, local mills and steambox soon available on location.

    I'm just the labourer really. Once I've finished stripping her we are employing a shipwright, repairs are being supervised by a surveyor and a specialist yard will also be used for some aspects of the repairs. Aiming for 18 months from this point but too many unknowns to make any accurate predictions, hopefully significantly less than a decade though!!!

    Impossible to answer at this juncture. I certainly hope so. She is listed on the UK National Historic Ship register so, in my humble opinion, it is definitely worth attempting to save her.

    Old Father Time will of course tell us the answers.
     
  14. Nick.K
    Joined: May 2011
    Posts: 328
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 103
    Location: Ireland

    Nick.K Senior Member

    It sounds as if you have a lot going for you. I look forward to following your progress.
    These types of boats really are the last examples of the whole history of ship building in timber...in Europe at least. It's great that there are people prepared to put so much energy in to restoring them.
    I feel it would be a mistake to lay a plywood sub-deck. New caulking on a traditional deck should last a good few years if done properly and it has the great advantage of being relatively easy to re-do if it starts to leak. Overlay decks are extremely difficult to bed on a sub-deck in such a way that there will not be water trapped between and where this happens you will get annoying drips through screw holes (difficult to fix) and eventually the ply will start to rot.
    It will be difficult to fit the plywood around the bulwark stanchions and this is likely to be the place you first get problems since the water will sit there due to the deck camber.
    A traditional deck will probably be less work, may cost less, is repairable and will probably last longer. Whether you use pitch or mastic could be a long debate, but neither will last long and pitch is way cheaper and easier to replace. At the end of the day it is a traditional craft, designed and built that way, why not replace like with like?
     
    1 person likes this.

  15. M&M Ovenden
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 355
    Likes: 75, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 527
    Location: Ottawa

    M&M Ovenden Senior Member

    I think this is good advice. I'd look around before committing to a plywood deck.

    Good luck with your project. It will be spectacular finished product.

    cheers,
    Mark
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.