50ft strip plank sailer

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by TOALL, Jun 29, 2016.

  1. bregalad
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Georgia

    bregalad Senior Member

    The designer estimates 8,000 to 9,000 man hours for this 42 footer
    http://store.gartsideboats.com/collections/sailboats/products/12-9m-cutter-design-174
    A first time builder working alone would almost certainly not be that efficient.
    But here you go:
    60 hours/week for 26 weeks ~1500 hours
    Working 20 hours/ weekend the remaining 7,000 man hours would take 350 weekends or an additional 6.7 years.... assuming no days or weekends missed.
    A comparable 50 foot boat would require many more man hours, not double but possibly nearly so.

    IMO you far overestimate the value of your house and cabinetmaking experience. I'm not belittling those skills, they have value, but there will be places where they lead you quite a ways in the wrong direction as well.

    Take a set of house plans home on Friday and study them over the weekend. On Monday you can start making lumber into house parts.
    Take home a set of plans for a 50 footer and on Monday you may be ready to start building a loft floor and suitable long battens and transferring the lines and offsets to full size drawings. First time, alone ..... you'd be lucky to have it lofted in 2 weeks. You haven't made anything yet. BTW That 60 x 20 shed won't feel spacious at all with a 50 x 12' or 14' boat in it.

    Your inexperience and house building background may lead you to take shortcuts in the lofting process. If so you will probably give back those man hours many times over in the months to come.

    The proper way to go about this would be to have study plans in hand for a specific boat. Most designers charge nominal fee for study plans. Every detail changes the building time. I wrote a response to one of your posts a few days ago but you deleted the post while I was writing. If I can find it I'll post it below.
     
  2. Robjl
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: Adelaide

    Robjl Senior Member

    Build time ???

    I built (alone) a 48' strip planked cruising yacht in 6 years, but is was my 5th cruising yacht. I was also working full time. I can't estimate the hours. I had a shed/workshop next to the house, I suspect most people underestimate the value of being able to step into the shed for a hour or so. I have posted a few pics in my gallery, if you have questions you think are relevant to what you have in mind I am happy to respond.
    I know your project is possible.
     
  3. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    That shed is too little, not that it couldn't be done in it but there's no room to turn things around easily, not room to turn the hull and all that takes time to get around. If all the circumstances were perfect (they never are) that 5 years might be accurate. You'll be surpriced how much time is spend just scrathing head pondering how the he** I'm gonna do this and that. When working in the up turned hull you climb in and out quadrizillion times.. and so on..

    BR Teddy
     
  4. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I agree that the shed is probably too small, but other than the length of the boat we haven't been given anything to work with.

    Does the OP have plans to hand? In which case, the displacement, beam, draft & freeboard would be useful figures. If we *assume* say 14' beam that leaves 3' either side for working space. Not enough. Assume 7' draft, 3' freeboard and a minimum of 1' under the bottom of the keel, that's 11' so now you have 5' headroom over the deck to work & lift stuff up to get it in the boat. Do-able but not ideal. Better wear a crash helmet....

    Unless he builds right way up, how does he propose rotating the hull.... the boat is going to have to come out, be flipped then put back in again.

    My hull is 12m long, 3m beam, 1.2m draft and 750mm freeboard - roughly. Shed is 16m long, 13.2m wide (6m wide centre bay and 2 of 3.1m wide side bays - American barn style) and 4.4m to the bottom of the trusses. I have a mezzanine floor at one end at deck level where I do a lot of the wood work and 2 of 3m wide skillion sides the full 16m length where I have the bandsaw, table saw, radial arm saw, timber stash etc etc. That shed is none too big and my hull is a lot smaller, AND I built it right way up.

    A 50' boat is not just 3m longer than mine, that's the trivial dimension. It's likely to be 3X the volume, possibly more, which is the really important thing to keep in mind. 30 tonnes plus of boat? Maybe only 20 tonnes if a lightweight skimming dish type hull but still a lot of boat.

    If the OP hasn't got even study plans yet, or settled on a design, this discussion has gone about as far as it can go.

    FWIW I know someone who built a 50' round bilge boat in aluminium. He took well over 5 years full time and there was no fairing or fancy fitout, plus a welded construction using big sheets of material is way faster than strip planking.

    Secondhand boats are dirt cheap. Another friend bought a Roberts Offshore 38 for $6000. OK, it's a Roberts and it does need a lot of work, but it came with a rig & sails. You can't build the hull for that price.

    Unless you're going sailing with a big crew, or plan to move aboard & live permanently there, 50' is way bigger than any one or two people need anyway. The rig alone is going to eat more than the originally stated budget.

    I'll go out on a limb & say that the OP simply cannot build a boat that size within the time & money budget he's specified. Quadruple the budget to pay for skilled labour, maybe.

    PDW
     
  5. TOALL
    Joined: Jun 2016
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    Location: uk

    TOALL Junior Member

    a big thank you for all your posts, I'm looking for the problem areas before I start and quite a few have been highlighted.
    I have full drawings for the build and a section through the hull (upside down on its jig) shows a working height floor to top of hull at 2.6. max beam 4.6m
    I should just have enough room to rotate the hull.
    I don't plan to fit the keel until the interior is complete and the deck is installed so I will have enough room to work comfortably.
    I plan to platform the area around the deck with a staircase for access.
    The shed is built onto the side of the workshop where there is a 3 metre x 4m sliding door again for good access.
    The shed will be removed for a crane to lift the boat onto the keel.

    I have full cutting lists for all the mould components which are formatted to go straight into my cnc machine, so no lofting
    I am using a local company to do all the sheathing and glass fibre work, I will position the bulkheads etc., and they will glass them in. (weekend workers)
    I am using guys from the adjoining car body refinishers to fair and paint the hull.(weekend workers)
    My timber costs are insignificant. I already have a large stock of Cedar, Iroko, American cherry and American black walnut. I have all the sheet material for the mould. The only thing I don't have is marine ply for the bulkheads ( I may chose a composite) or board material for the interior.
    I have a good friend who is a mechanical engineer to help with the engine installation etc
    Adjoining business is a metal fabricators, they owe me lots of favors so metal work is no problem.
    The building shed will be permanently kept at the necessary temp until all the glassing has been completed.
    The sheathing will be vacuum bagged. I have a large pump installed
    Planks will be nailed to the mould with plastic nails.
    Internal components will be made in the adjoin workshop in small enough sizes to move to the boat. (I may build mock up sections of the hull interior in the workshop to help, with cnc it wont take much effort)

    My focus is moving towards the budget. A few of you have said £80000 isn't enough. The overall epoxy costs are unknown to me as is the cloth. It would be really helpful if someone could pitch in.
     
  6. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Get some means to control humidity. It must be pretty constant untill the hull sheathing is completed and preferably during the entire project (wood warping, amine blush. For me at temperatures below 20 C air humidity between 65 to 70% works fine.)

    What's the laminating schedule? Pretty easy to calculate thou a wild guess about 6 barrels of epoxy. Biax glass is cheap compared to epoxy it's price is allmost irrelevant, more will be spent to brushess, vinegar and cloves.. ;)

    BR Teddy
     
  7. nzboy
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    nzboy Senior Member

    I think your 80k uk pound will be close depending on a few factors such as the fancy stuff you put on your boat .Epoxy a ball park figure 5-600 litres plus cloth here in nz that would be 8k in uk pounds .I was talking to some one today about a project completed for $1,000,000us with a materials list at $250,000us So a similar 50ft production boat may cost retail 500k so materials will probably be 20% of that taking into account dealers margins as my friend was only talking a contracted price, but then production boats will get materials cheaper .So $150,000 which is close to 80k uk pounds is close
     
  8. nzboy
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    nzboy Senior Member

    Funny how many litres in 6 barrels . Our barrels here are 200 litres .I guess it could be a wood cored composite boat at that rate
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  9. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Plus the hardener so mebbe 1.3 tons of E gue.. One barrel for gluing, 1/2 for fairing and 4.5 for laminating. It's at least 400sqm of surface in and out, 3litres/sqm approx.. Not far.. But depends of the schedules.

    BR Teddy
     
  10. TOALL
    Joined: Jun 2016
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    TOALL Junior Member

    I've fitted full air conditioning to control the humidity and temp.
    Epoxy is expensive, I've noticed that it is sold in kg, and wonder what that relates to in litres.
    Can any one direct me to a bulk supplier?
     
  11. bregalad
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Georgia

    bregalad Senior Member

  12. nzboy
    Joined: Apr 2011
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    nzboy Senior Member

    Generally you will only need climate control when you are glassing the hull
    what thickness is your strip plank ? Many strip plank builds are only16-18mm nominal so structural e glass inside and out is sound advice and lasts
    indefinitely as long as you keep off the rocks .So we are now talking composite which means shares in an epoxy company .How many layers of glass?
     
  13. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Google gives dozens of resellers in the UK. Just ask quotes, bet most of them love to sell in full barrels, thou the brands may vary. With the amounts you'll be using get general purpose epoxy for gluing and fairing and appropriate laminating epoxy for the skins, and you need only one barrel at a time, I'm sure it's not that much cheaper beyond a barrel purchase..

    NZBoy, you really want to control the humidity of the timber during the entire project. Don't ask how I know :rolleyes:

    BR Teddy
     
  14. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    OK, so you're not actually going to do the hull build etc yourself, really, more you're going to project-manage it and farm out a lot of the grunt work. That cuts your personal time down a hell of a lot & makes it more feasible for your timeline.

    Not a criticism, BTW. I would have done the same if I had the money & available labour.

    I'll assume you've got a good handle on the hull & interior costs, being a cabinet maker. I have no idea about epoxy, I built a steel boat. However your plumbing & wiring costs are going to be a lot more than the equivalent in a house. Probably 5X as much maybe more. Voice of experience here - you wouldn't believe the amount of custom stainless fittings I've TIG welded up.....

    Anyway your really big costs are going to be:

    Propulsion system. Mine cost approx $25000 AUD. Bukh DV36 diesel engine, Autostream 22" adjustable pitch feathering prop, shaft, tanks, pumps, filters etc etc. Might be even more but AT LEAST that much with zero allowance for 3rd party labour. I even machined my own prop shaft because I could.

    Rig & sails. My friends with their 40' cutter rig spent $50K on the rig alone. Sails extra. Lots extra. Don't know if the $50K included the big self-tailing winches or not. Think $1000 plus for each winch you need....

    Electronic toys - chart plotter, autopilot, radar, wind instruments. You can spend as much or as little as you choose. IMO the minimum is a chart plotter and a depth sounder. I know people who've spent over $30K AUD on electronics, others like me who spend as little as possible.

    I guess here you also need to cost in the amount of DC power storage (and voltage) you're going to want - which is a function of how fancy your electronic toy collection and fitout is going to be. I'm going for a low level so approx $2000 AUD for AGM batteries, bigger alternator, smart battery charger and a couple of PV panels. Probably blow out to $3K. More like $10K if I used lithium batteries, which I'd like to do but refuse to pay the premium for.

    Whatever budget you come up with, allow 33% more for contingencies. You can't take the money with you, building a boat is functionally the same as pissing the money down a rathole, so don't stint on it.....

    PDW
     

  15. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    You want to control the humidity, period. A month or so back we had a cold snap where temperatures dropped below 0C every night for 4-5 days and didn't break 10C in the daytime. Everything got really cold. Then it bounced back above 10C and rained so the air was 100% humidity. My hull literally ran with condensation and every machine in the shop tried to turn brown with rust. I went through a *lot* of WD40, Lanotec and paper towels - metalworking machine tools are *not* improved by having their precision ways rusted.

    Fitting a big dehumidifier is on my urgent job list...

    PDW
     
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