50' performance cruising sailcat

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by vanquishcc, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. Eric ruttan
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    Eric ruttan Junior Member

    This is not your thread. It's not your website. It's not your responsibility to warn people off things you do not like.

    The rules are keep it on topic and be nice.

    If you want to make a thread with a critique of Rob's designs, go right ahead. Perhaps instead of cluttering up other people's threads you could just post a link to your compendium of critiques.

    Perhaps then people can weigh in with critique of your critiques. You can see how that goes.

    Let me explain to you what is perfectly obvious to everyone else and I'll use small words.

    It becomes entirely unfair to the Original Poster to put such critiques in their threads. See, what happens, in the entire history of the internet, is people disagree with said critique. Then said thread becomes a crap storm of off-topic point, counterpoint, and insult.

    Sound familiar?

    So, could you two clowns stop?
     
  2. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member


    This video tells the truth - proa on the video is very wet, even on relatively small wave. People on board have to 'shunt' back and forth as well, pulling the cushions with them and then trying to find dry spot or hide behind superstructure. Helm station is unprotected from both spray and wind. Would wet boat make a comfortable cruiser? Wetness is important parameter of seaworthiness... Hey, it a 50' boat, not a sailing dinghy, one would expect some sort of comfort and protection! A 50' boat (so You pay for 50' mooring fees!) with comfort and accommodation of 28'... Deck safety does not exist at all!

    This is not the case for cruising catamarans, where helm and cockpit are well protected.
     
  3. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I have to agree, it looks horribly wet in flat water. I believe it sails in the Islemeer, so basically a lake about 10ft deep. Shunting from a reach to a reach is a proas best feature. Envisage how one gybes when sailing downwind in a twisting channel or river (like the Tamar for example, where I write this on board our catamaran). You have to luff up head to wind.

    If you sail a catamaran over about 40ft you don't realise you are sailing until you are offshore in 20knots + the boat is so smooth and dry.

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  4. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    In that video they sail in the lee of a dyke in a force 4-5. Sailing with Blind Date, a Harryproa Visionnary https://framsblog.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/sailing-with-blind-date-a-harryproa-visionnary/
    The wet part is where I would argue that the boat fulfills the SOR. The usual passengers are visually impaired and need to feel the acceleration, the wind and the spray.
    It would be a good boat for adventure daytours in a warm place. Feel the thrill at 10kn boatspeed. Some mods needed so the passengers don't fall off and the crew is safe working the lines while docking, but it's easy to make a flat deck on the lee hull, some rails, and extend the nets to the bows
    The problems come only if you market it for cruisers. Denney moved the steering station on the new designs so you can steer from under the hard dodger, but I would still be pissed if I took a shower every time I moved out or the boat stuffs it's bow into the next wave.

    Just to stay on topic this is how much living space one gets on a 60' Harryproa (older design).
     
  5. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    Yes maybe for first 15min spray is fun, in tropics, in sunny day. Not on a cruiser.
    In general, those proas look like a floating diagnosis. So, don't get fooled by 'proapaganda' ;) Instead, go and get proper boat by proper designer.
     
  6. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    You seem to think that harryproas are an individual boat. They aren't, they are a type, with as many possible variations as catamarans. You also assume that I am still doing what I did 10 years ago. When we see something we can improve, we do so. We don't wait for someone else to do it then copy it, or for the rule makers to decide it is ok and then follow along.
    Further, because you sell conservative stock designs and/or won't deal with amateurs, you don't get to talk to the owners who want something different. Because we enjoy dealing with challenges, most of our clients are in this category. And few of their boats are built strictly to plans. Often they get it right and we change future plans (and pay them for their input), sometimes they don't and we help them put it right in the most cost effective manner.

    Blind Date and Kleen Breeze are 15 year old designs, both with specific owner requirements that could not be met by 'conventional' designs but could be, and were, on the
    Harryproa. They are both the first of their kind. The bluff bows are because all the 'experts' at the time predicted they would sail nose down. They don't, so we have made the bows finer. The original rudders were pretty unique, it was a big deal to make them work at all, spray was considered a small price to pay. The latest designs are much sleeker. However, I would much prefer wet rudders/daggerboards that can be lifted for shallow water and kick up in a collision than fixed ones that are dry. This is an example of conventional designers not being willing to make a change, even though a collision with a floating object is expensive and potentially fatal.

    Some other examples:
    Swept back shrouds are standard on cruising catamarans, despite the fact they limit down wind performance, make hoisting and lowering the main difficult (near impossible downwind in a strong wind), are terrifying in a big breeze gybe and totally unsafe in a squall where it is impossible to ease the main fully. According to Richard, this is at best a 5% improvement over an unstayed rig, and only when the stayed rig is continually monitored and tweaked by an expert, which is almost never on a cruising cat.

    Huge cabins are a danger in a seaway, particularly in cats that actually sail upwind where the corkscrew motion is hard to anticipate. But in the interests of 'maximising living space" and the absence of any rules about it, designers make saloons as big and open as they can. Harryproa cabins are the size they are because it is sensible, not because they cannot be made larger.

    Diesel engines inside a cat are noisy, smelly, hot, hard to access and their shaft/outdrive is damaged if the boat sails over a large floating object. Fouled props are impossible to clear without a swim. An outboard that does not ventilate in waves and can easily be reached without getting wet is safer, cheaper and lighter. A second motor that can steer the boat in any direction in calm water for manoeuvring makes a lot more sense than 2 inboards that only go forwards and reverse.

    A basic tenet of seamanship is "keep a good lookout". This is impossible with a raised helm and/or low cut headsails, which limit visibility in the area most likely to contain a problem. On a Harry, the helmsman can see near 360 degrees and has the option of the helm inside or outside the cabin CRUISER 60 – HARRYPROA http://harryproa.com/?p=1747 .

    Flogging headsails are dangerous, scary and short lived. Furlers are great, except for their windage and weight aloft and their propensity to jam at 3 am on a stormy morning. Cats need them so they can tack in a seaway. Proas don't. The same applies to rocker, which also adds draft and supplies the second least enjoyable aspecyt of boat building, installing floors (fairing is the worst).

    What do the examples have in common? They are all sensible, but none of them are covered by the rules, so conventional designers are slow to, or don't, adopt them.

    As for comparing harrys with catamarans, this is not easy unless the boats are for similar purposes. I did it because Rumars asked me too. 99.9% of owners start with cost, not length. Apart from marina dwellers, sensible sailors want more length (speed, safety, motion), all else being equal. And the closest to equality is the harryproa configuration, where additional length is almost free. Near the end of their requirements is whether it has 4 double berths (Outremer, etc) or the 2 queen size cabins with ensuites and 2 large singles with shared toilet/shower of the C60.

    You are correct that the mast in the hull makes it lighter and cheaper, as does the short hull. And the rig and rudders makes them safer. These are features the Harry has that the others don't, so they should be included. If you remove all the things that make Harrys different to production cats, you end up comparing sailmakers and paint suppliers.

    Rumar's,
    We expect Richard to denigrate harryproas whenever the opportunity arises and Alik to be unprofessional and resort to personal abuse when he can't support his claims, but for you to state in post #45 that I am misleading about harryproas is libellous. Please reference (ie where and when) your claim.
    That harrys sail fast is shown in this 11 year old video, a 15m sailing effortlessly at wind speed under plain sails in 10 and 15 knots of breeze, something no cruising cats were doing then, and not many do now. Later versions are lighter, sleeker and have more sail area. Why would they not be faster?
    That they are seaworthy is demonstrated by a well overloaded Aroha (the first 12m/40'ter launched) sailing across the Tasman and weathering a 45 knot storm. Suffered some damage, but not because it was a Harryproa.
    The crew in the Blind Date video above are all sight or intellectually impaired and sailing for the first time, apart from the skipper. Says more about it's suitability for purpose than people sitting to leeward getting wet.

    Diesel outboard from China: "4 stroke 40hp water cooled, long shaft, electric start tiller control diesel outboard engine: USD 3650 include sea shipping cost to Australia. The production time is 20 working days.We will provide one-year warranty." Suspect it meets the emissions standards (or can be made to), but expect proving it costs more than it is worth due to the paper work involved. Buy 2 if you are worried about spares, but I wouldn't be.
     
  7. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    No, we don't think so. They are weird fetish, but might attract some.
    We think they are marketed completely incorrectly. They are not cruising boats and are designed without any standards in mind, so their safety is not verified. Say, it would be possible to make them comply ISO on deck safety, but seems the designer does think that all standards are not for his genius creations.

    Light weight claims are not properly supported by You, as you not follow ISO8666 for definitions of displacement. Say, batteries and generator are not 'payload'. Also, comparing displacement, one should operate boats with similar accommodations and comfort level. It is evident that proas have inferior accommodations compared to catamarans of same length.

    Claims about performance might be partially true, but they are achieved by significantly compromising accommodations and seakeeping.

    Proas are 'cheaper', but this is illusive saving, because, again, level of accommodation and equipment of Your 50' is matching 28' monohull. So if one likes to sleep next to generator in coffin-type bunk, then proa is for him :)

    Nothing personal...
     
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  8. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    This is compilation of crap, because:
    • Have You heard about steerable saildrives? https://www.yanmarmarine.com/Products/4JH80-SPP/
    • On catamaran, because engines are so far apart, one can turn a boat in around on a spot by reversing one engine. Cats maneuver nicely in marinas even if they don't have bow/stern trusters.
    • Engines on catamarans are installed in easily accessible engine rooms (access from deck), together will all noisy and smelly equipment. At least, on properly designed catamarans. This watertight engine room also helps to comply with ISO12217-2 requirements to inverted flotation.
    • Most of cats with saildrives or shaft drives can stand aground, so there is no issue to 'sail over a large floating object'. Also cats would have 2 engines, helps for redundancy.

    Better buy 3! What an idiot would buy outboard engine made on order, from China?? For ocean going boat, are You serious? No service, illusive warranty. Reliable engine is primary factor of safety, also on a sailboat, one likes it or not. Say, on "man overboard" first thing I would do is to start the engine (so it should be stand-by, not an outboard stored somewhere in cabin of Harryproa).

    I think this is classic case of inventor becoming unreasonable, once fetish is suppressing critical thinking.
     
  9. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    First, just to be clear, I think that you Mr. Denney are a passionate man who truely believs that your proa design is the best. You could have not achieved what you did otherwise, and I admire you for it. I also believe that your ideeas about promoting you design are wrong and that you probably don't understand the effect they have. Your general procedure is to cherrypick aspects of harryproas (or indian ocean proas or weight to windward proas if you prefer that terms) praise them to heaven, opposing them to what you determine to be bad aspects of other designs (be they proa, cat, tri or general boatbuilding things) and never ever mentioning the compromises your designs have to make. By doing this the casual reader is induced to believe that your proas are fault free and an evolutionary pinnacle of boatdesign. I have selected two such examples from your last post, that in my opinon are a misrepresentation of facts.

    Let's start with the paragraph, about cabin space. At first you describe a scenario of induced danger and blaming the designers for open spaces. The danger comes from "corkscrew motion" presumably throwing people across the open saloon in the absence of any handholds. Next you say that your cabins are designed to prevent that scenario. So let's find out what's wrong. Is such a scenario possible in a bridgesaloon cat? In theory yes it is. In practice it would take a big storm because such cats are heavy enough to damp that motion. It might not be comfortable but it is not life threatening. Cats light enough to achieve that kind of acceleration don't have big open bridgedeck cabins. Now is this same scenario likley in a proa? Well yes, proas are light enough that such might be a common ocurrence, and it is indeed sensible to design for it. Now were is the misrepresentation? Instead of stating: by their nature of light weight and quick acceleration coupled with pronounced length asimetry my proas can not have big open cabin spaces you say "I could make them larger but it's bad design, just look at all those dangerous cats". And of course you forget to add that to get the same living space (even with smaller compartiments) one has to make a bigger proa then the equivalent cat.

    Second paragraph, headsails. First you offer a known truth to establish trust. Everybody knows flogging is bad and furlers are good. Then you get out the nightmare scenario jammed furler at night in storm. Everybody fears that. Now comes the misrepresentation of facts: you imply the nightmare scenario is a common occurence by using the word "propensity". Then you say cats need jibs to tack in a seaway and reinforce that with the need for rocker. Proas of course are the superior design needing neither.
    Furlers don't have a "propensity" to jam, if they do that on a regular basis something is wrong in the installation. All cats do need some rocker but not all need jibs for tacking. Associating rocker to jibs makes the reader think all cats need jibs. The crowning is of course the implication for the proas. Some proas don't have rocker and jibs, some have one or both. It is the designers choice what compromises he makes to achieve his goals.
    This brings me to my last point, your design goals. You never formulate them so that the public can actually judge success or failure. You also never state your metrics. You say "Rare Bird" sailes windspeed in 10-15kn. Wonderfull, but in order to be able to judge we need to know if it was designed to do just that, in what weight trim and what seastate. The newer designs should have more speed, what does that mean? Did you design them to sail 1,5-2 x windspeed in 10-15kn? Weight, conditions, trim, etc.
    And please don't tell me that the storm scenario on the cat can happen, or the furler can jam, I know they can. Boatdesign is about "normal operating conditions" not extremes. You can define that normality as you like, and if you want to design for 45kn of wind and the floating container so be it, but say it loud and clear so that we know how to judge.

    I won't bother to analyse the rest, sufficient to say there is a norm for minimum visibility area, and in the videos I can see the antifouling on one end on the boat and not the other.

    Just to be clear Mr. Denney I rate designers by their portfolio not their diplomas and the guy with only supertankers to his name would have a harder time selling me a sailing boat then the well proven amateur sailboat designer, so I dont care about your formal education. I am sorry that your indifference to any established rules and standards as well as your misguided promotion strategy and your propensity to feel challanged by constructive criticism are hindering the comercial success of your design. Altough highly specialized craft proas (of all types) could have a place in the modern sailing scene.
     
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  10. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Alik, steerable saildrive is indeed what he tries to emulate for cheap. The engines on the chinese diesel outboards are usually older yanmar clones. The quality of chinese diesels varies by factory (there are several producing the same design). I would be actually more concerned about the gears in the driveleg. Warranty and spares are simple, no warranty if an importer does not offer one himself but the chinese will ship spares anywhere and sometimes parts from the original design fit (and sometimes not).
    The whole thing is heavy, no chance to store one in the cabin wihout a crane.

    I think the longtail diesel on the bridge is a more sensible option if one wants it cheap.
     
  11. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    As I said, on a cruising boat reliable engine should be stand-by at all times. On short-handed boats as well. So whatever is used, it should be reliable and not where I would 'save' the cost.

    For spares and service - when we design the boat for the client (normally we design for private client or shipyard, or government agency; stock designs are very little share of what we do), first thing to ask is what engine brands have service in expected operation area, hours rating, etc.? From that, we define the propulsion system. If one has to wait for 2+ weeks for engine service, this is not affordable, especially when it comes to commercial boat. There were few clients who would like to choose exotic 'Chinese diesels' based on price, but at the end of the day those were not serviceable and not delivering rated power. There are some engine manufacturers who target, say, African market, where engine will get stolen before it gets broken - this is exactly the cheap crap one should never use on ocean going boat. I would never tell my customer: "Go and buy that cheap diesel, and second one for spares" - this is not what professional designer should do. If one can afford expenses for 50' multihull to keep it in marina, why he can't afford proper engine??

    The mission of designer is not to maximize saving on Client's safety by offering cheap engines and substandard designs. The mission of designer, in my opinion, is to be fair and offer workable complex solution of aesthetics, performance, comfort, safety and cost; with priorities given according to the requirements in each case.
     
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  12. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    Thanks for the change in attitude. Your presumptions are incorrect.
    There is no reason why a Harryproa could not have a full width cabin, with all the pros and cons that go with it. The pros (more space) are far outweighed by the cons: added weight, cost, drag, loss of outside space and, a distant 5th, the increased chance of being thrown around in a seaway. Not just upwind, but with a big beam sea breaking against the boat.
    There is also no reason why Harryproas could not be shorter. Pros for shorter: lower marina fees. Pros for longer: better motion in a seaway, faster, safer surfing in big waves, more secure feeling. The cost and weight are the same as the extended ends would be lower to give the same buoyancy lever arm.
    All cats corkscrew going over waves upwind. It is nothing to do with weight. It is a function of equal length hulls being lifted diagonally. Harrypr0as don't as the different length hulls hit the waves at the same time. More like a mono motion, but without the heeling.

    Maybe this is so if you think the rules and standards cover everything that can go wrong, but I could not sleep at night if I thought I had not done everything possible to make my designs as safe as possible in all conceivable conditions and situations.
    Example? Most cruising cat sailors reduce sail at night. Why? Because if a squall hits, they have to wake up the off watch, bear away and run with the breeze, furl the headsail and reef the main. The potential hazards are an accidental gybe, getting clobbered by a flogging sheet, a foul up with the furling and not being able to pull the main down because it is pressed against the stays. 20 minutes later, the squall passes, and they wallow for the rest of the night. This is my personal experience (I was a cat delivery and charter skipper for 5 years, have also cruised many miles in my own cat), supported by cruiser blogs, chat groups etc. Whether these issues are "extreme" or not, does not concern the average cruiser, so they reduce sail when it gets dark. A furler only needs to jam once in 30 knots with the sail part furled for it to be a big deal. May never happen, should never happen, but when it does, you are in trouble. And avoiding trouble is what cruising equipment decisions are all about. So, if it can be avoided, we avoid it.
    The harryproa squall solution is to release the sheet(s). The boat drifts and the fully battened, self vanging main weathercocks quietly, regardless of the point of sail. The crew can choose to drift until the squall passes, sheet on just enough for the available breeze or put in a leisurely reef as the sail is in line with the breeze and the boat is near stationary.
    Of course, you could do the same with an unstayed mast on a cat. But contrary to designers opinions, cats need headsails. Partly as they are relatively heavy, so need more sail area, but mostly as in a seaway, with reduced sail, they will not tack without backing the job or steering in reverse. Again, this is my experience, backed up by blogs etc. What usually happens is the boat gets in irons, sails backwards and if the highly loaded rudder does not break something, eventually comes onto the new tack a long way downwind. This is scary enough that most cruisers would gybe or start the engine rather than risk it. If you have evidence/video0 of a cruising cat with a reefed mainsail and no headsail tacking in wind appropriate waves, please show it.

    If you do not design a cruising cat for "45 knot winds and floating containers, logs, whales, etc", you are going to look stupid when they happen. Which, eventually, they do. And even if they don't, most owners would like to think that they have done everything they can to handle them.

    Harryproa design goals are far better formulated (and realised) than most designers. Easy to build and sail, low cost, safe and fast. see Why Choose a Harryproa? – HARRYPROA http://harryproa.com/?p=3060 for explanations of how we achieve these. Those I can put details on, (costs, hours, safety, ease of sailing and building) I do, with evidence to support them. But generally the aim is to optimise all of them. Harrys may not be perfect, but unlike almost all cat designers, when we see something that is wrong (eg the rudders and bows on the early designs, stayed rigs, fixed daggers, complex systems, etc) we change them. I also spend more time discussing and explaining my boats and why I do what I do, in public, than any other designer.

    I hope this answers your criticisms. If not, please say so (and why) and I will go into more depth. And please, do "analyse the rest". I enjoy discussing boats with sensible people and believe I can learn a lot from criticism backed up by reasons, examples or logic.

    Alik,
    The majority of cruising cats have the engines inside the boat as access through deck hatches in a gale is dangerous. Plus, the hatches and engine bays need to be big enough for someone to get safely inside and at the same level as the engine, ideally while the engine is running.
    No performance cats have fixed keels protecting the prop and rudder. Good seamanship requires a boat that will sail upwind in a breeze and waves, which low aspect keel boats don't. Storm survival is enhanced if there is nothing below the water for the boat to trip over. Fixed keels are inefficient, potentially dangerous and remove one of the cat's big advantages, shallow draft.
    The C50 harryproa has 2 queen sized double cabins, with ensuites, and a big single with ensuite. It also has a 10 person dining table and enough deck space for 30 people to sit comfortably and party. If they carry a gen set (most owners prefer solar panels) it is stored 9m away from where the crew sleeps or in the huge 'toybox' on deck. Which 28' mono hull has any of this? Which 50' cat needs more than this?
    The C50 outboard is permanently mounted on the tender, ready for instant use, not in the cabin. CRUISER 50 – HARRYPROA http://harryproa.com/?p=1749
    Starting the motor is absolutely not the first thing an experienced crew does in a man overboard on a sailing boat. Unless it is calm, drop the sails. Then check for ropes over the side, then start the motor. Then start praying that the MOB can get on board over the stern without getting hit on the head as the hull pitches or chopped up by the prop. On most cruising cats, if someone goes overboard in a decent breeze, they are dead. Prove this by filling 5x20 litre water cans, tie them together and toss them over the stern while sailing fast, then go back and pick them up.
    Or, on a Harryproa, shunt (takes about 10 seconds) and sail directly back to the MOB, stop the boat by releasing the sheets, lower one end of the tender and help/pull the MOB up the ramp.
    The rotating outdrive is a cool bit of kit, except for it's cost, drag, weight (2 x 300 kgs), maintenance requirements, lack of fail safe if it jams pointing sideways and at 80 hp it is twice as much power as most catamarans need.
    Deering asked about cheap diesel outboards. I told him of a couple. What he does with the information is nothing to do with me.
     
  13. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    This is exactly how we design the engine rooms - one can get inside there safely. No hanging 'head down'.

    I did not mention any fixed keels in my posts.

    I think You understand the difference between starting the engine and engaging the gear. Thus, I would start the engine first, and only then drop the sails, check ropes, etc. Standing with sails already dropped and trying to start the engine is very bad idea.
    So You don't need to teach me how to sail, I do sail too often ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  14. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    These are very strong claims again, so You say that other designers don't improve their designs, and don't explain?
    Well, I did 2 presentations at IBEX on catamaran design (2012 and 2017), at Marine Design 2015 in UK, at Moscow Boat Show 2019, conference on Super&Mega Yacht 2019 (Genova)... and published number of papers on catamaran design, say at IJMD in 2015 Vol.157 and recently in CSYS2019 - it will be a long list, does it count as explaining? Full chapter on small catamarans in this book is from us. I know that many designers do the same, and more than that.
    So if You say You are explaining more than others, where are Your publications, in peer-reviwed and research magazines, speeches at international professional events??

    Here are again unsupported claims, same as with Your designs. In general, I think You should probably pay more respect to other designers, especially to those who spent a lot of time to master engineering before they started actually designing things for clients.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
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  15. Eric ruttan
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Eric ruttan Junior Member

    Theres that.
    Anyone care to note what logical fallacy this is?
    I found this very disapointing. The topic became how one cannot build thier own boat and a designer like you, who can speak to the topic, pop in, not to educate or explain, but to leave an entirly inappropriate comment on something you know nothing about, avoiding comment on the assertion that your clients cannot and should not be allowed to build the designs they buy from you.

    And?
    How much did you drop the cost, raise the safety and quicken the build of cats in thos papers?
    How did any of those papers actualy effect the sailing cat owner?
    To paraphrase Solomon, the making of and presenting of papers has no end. It's the content of them that matters. Do you even rank?

    You wanna stand on your papers? Share the measure of the impactfulness of said papers, compared with, say the most impactful in your field?

    As a side note to the reader. This ISO fettish has been killing creative engineering for 50 years. The less creative laywer engineering types, with their inability to see the big picture are squeezing out innovation. Real engineers are spending thier whole careers filling papers with reports of compliance instead of actual value added engineering. And when non compliance is found it just gets hand waved away. All of the large newsworthy engineering scandals you can name all had thier ISO compliance papers done. It stopped nothing.

    I have always found standards that suck and standards that are worthy of working towards.

    Anyone standing on 'But its the standard!' Is an idiot, IME.

    Anyone worth anything can clearly explain the WHY of the standard and WHY it matters at the drop of a hat.

    If you have a design that violiates a standard, but comports with WHY the standard exsists, then you can and should ignore said standard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
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