41 Foot Trailerable Blue Water Cruising Catamaran

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Skint For Life, Apr 27, 2011.

  1. Skint For Life
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Skint For Life Junior Member

    Hi all,

    BACKGROUND: I've been trying to solve this whole "foldable boat goes from road legal trailer to sailing the worlds oceans" thing for a while now.

    I have no boat design training. I am well aware that any design/designs that I come up with will have to be checked over thoroughly by a naval architect before any such design could be built.

    To me the goal is to get a road legal trailerable boat to the water and launched and have it capable of cruising the world. I don't want to cruise the world at this stage, but it would be nice to know the design could do it if required.

    I am new to sailing and really enjoy it. In design I do not want to limit myself to conventional sailing wisdom. If a kite is a better option and it's not considered a "sailboat" anymore I'm ok with that, I'm happy if whatever the end result is gets the job done. To me the look of any boat is irrelevant until it's function is proven. Beauty is an added bonus as long as it does not interfere with function.

    PARAMETERS: In New Zealand a light simple trailer and load (towed behind a standard 4X4/car/van etc.) cannot be heavier than 3500KG (3.5ton) It cannot exceed the measurements 12.5 meters long, 2.5 meters wide and 4.25 meters high. A load can over hang the towing hitch forward, but again not more than a total length of 12.5 meters so I don't think this will be relevant at this point.

    THE PLAN: To design a boat with the maximum volume, load carrying ability, safety and comfort within the set parameters. Said boat should be fully liveable whether in the ocean or parked up in a camp ground (living areas must stay upright). This way the owner of said boat does not need to own a dwelling, just the boat, if cruising funds run out, simply trailer it, it now becomes your "caravan" for land based living. Said boat should also be able to be crewed by 2 people easily with comfortable accommodation for 4 people minimum.

    PROGRESSION: Working within these parameters I have drawn many many designs, the parameters really limit the options, I have looked into catamarans, trimarans, foldable designs, demountable designs, kites, inflatable amas or hulls, split rigs etc. The list goes on.

    I would have liked to have gone with some of my foldable bridge deck catamaran designs, but it appears to me that you just cannot realistically achieve good living space and full standing room in hulls and bridgedeck in a design that has to stay under 4.25 meters tall.

    Some of the foldable trimarans (farrier,dragonfly etc.) are very interesting although from everything I have seen no designer has taken full advantage of the dimensions of a road legal trailer, please post up if you know of a boat that is say 38-41 feet long and fits within the road legal trailer limits.

    I have checked out cat2fold, it is an interesting design but appears to me (amatuer) to just not be big enough for serious blue water cruising. I have read many designers talking about blue water boats having to be big boats regardless of the number of hulls. Obviously Heaven Twins points out that everything is subject to opinion.

    All that being said, just as the bigger the 4wd&tyres=the smaller the terrain the bigger the boat=the smaller the wave. So all things being considered a bigger boat should generally be/feel a safer boat.

    I really like the SIG45 catamaran. Obviously as my design is far more cruising orientated hi-tech composites and rig are not such a consideration. I like the way it slices through the water and has very level uninterupt trajectory, very little (if any) bucking around or slamming.

    I just read alot of James Wharrams site. I found his design theories very interesting I am fascinated by his twin masted soft wing sail rigs. I see what he is getting at with his low freeboard/windage designs, I am aware that for an open deck cat my design will have rather large freeboard and consequently high windage. On the boats that I have been on I have always been happier with more freeboard as it means a dryer ride, if this means the loss of some performance then I think for a cruising catamaran I can accept that.

    CURRENT DESIGN: The current design I am running with is a appx 41 foot (12.45 meters) open deck cruising catamaran with 1.2 meter wide hulls with a 2 meter vertical section of hull as seen in the pictures this gives a full standing height and width of 2 meters x 1.2 meters in each hull, the bottom of the hull is semicircular. There is room available within the parameters to add to the height of the hulls, but for now I am just trying to work out the very basic shape of the hulls not where the cockpit will be, where the galley will be, where the beams/masts will be stored etc.

    I want it to be demountable and all of the components easy to handle, as such I am seriously considering a split rig to keep mast length and weight down, so stepping the masts is quick and easy. I do not want through hull fittings, as such I would like kick up rudders, 2 x outboard engines. Leeway prevention is also to be of the kick up/winch up variety. All the demountable parts have to be able to fit on the trailer.

    YOUR HELP: I would like the help of those in the know primarily for the hull hydrodynamics. I have designed hulls trying to maximise volume, but they may sail like an iceberg. Also I have no idea of the weight of the finished product. Removable weight should not be considered. Lets say the boat should be "sailable" and still under the weight limit, so you could take the boat to the water, sail it, put it back on the trailer and still be under the weight limit. I do not expect it to be under the weight limit when full loaded and ready for an offshore cruise.

    SOME SKETCHES: Words only go so far so I will include here some rough sketches and scale sketches that i have drawn, again all very rough. Note some sketches are merely to visualise one idea so consider it all as a bit of a rough brainstorm.

    DEVELOPMENT: Once a suitable design has been finalised I would like to build a working model scaled to say 14 footish. For trialling of concepts, rigs, rudders, leeway prevention etc.
     

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  2. jamez
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    jamez Senior Member

    I like the boat/mob home idea.

    While most modern multis have relatively high freeboard, IMO your design has too much and I don't think its necessary. There is no need to have the cabin sole so far above the hull bottom. Also It is unlikely you could utilise full headroom from bow to stern, assuming you will have berths at each ends like most tube-cats.You could save weight windage cost etc by pruning it back where appropriate.

    By way of comparison attached drawings of a couple of demountable Tennant cats in the 40 foot range.
     

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  3. Skint For Life
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Skint For Life Junior Member

    Hi James,

    Thanks for that, I think the boat/mobile home idea is good too.

    What I didn't say in the first post is the benefits of making a design like this work are plentiful:

    Ease of haulout for repairs, cleaning, antifoul, repaint etc.
    A real blue water boat for land locked people in USA etc.
    No marina fees, no expensive travel lift haulouts etc.
    The boat can be better looked after when not in use.
    More stability and volume than any trailer tri I know of.
    A dryer? Safer? ride than any trailer tri I know of.
    Good resale? I imagine a boat like this would be in high demand.
    Ease of building? Close to identical hull forms? One mould not two.
    One abode, low overheads. Only a trailer and tow vehicle to be kept in your favourite country.

    There is probably heaps I have missed for now.

    I checked out the tennant site, and those pictures you linked. Thank you for that. I see the cabin soles of those boats are way lower. The reason I put them so high was to try and get full standing height and width in the hulls, mainly for space or the feeling of it but also so a toilet/shower could be placed in the center of the hull with a passage past it, allowing cosy double berths at either end of the hull. Could you please explain how you achieve full standing height in a amidships shower? Is the shower a walk through design?

    Are those demountable tennant cats that you showed designed to demount quickly and easily? Are they designed to fit onto a road legal light trailer? I saw figures for displacement but unfortunately not weight, do you know what they weigh?

    Obviously the hull forms are very good. I only designed the big ugly hulls the way I did for maximum room, obviously if they need to be trimmed up or completely changed to give any degree of performance I am fine with that.

    One of the main things I want to know is if the design fits the criteria of what has already been discussed and is a two hull, non pod design with say full standing room in the shower and galley. What sort of weight would a boat like that be approximately? Also same question but with a central pod with sitting height only, weight of the boat approximately?

    Thanks again :D
     
  4. Sand crab
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    Sand crab Junior Member

    Cat2fold

    Check out this foldable 36' cat. http://www.cat2fold.com/ It has been for sale on Ebay. It's in California. BOB
     
  5. Skint For Life
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Skint For Life Junior Member

    Thanks Bob, I have checked it out plenty. I mentioned it in my first post:
    Can anyone give approximate figures on the weight of an opendeck demountable 41 foot catamaran?
     
  6. Sand crab
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    Sand crab Junior Member

    Cat2fold again

    I was multitasking when i read your first post and missed this part. But anyway. You are in New Zealand and so are the molds for that boat. The hulls are already about as wide as can be transported so why not use these? I have read about numerous boats being stretched in the design or building stage or even years later so why not explore this possibility? The original Cat2fold was fairly beamy. I recall 24' but I can't find that data anymore. Assuming that it was this then the folding mechanisim is perfect for a 41' LOA and still just a little beamy. Did you notice that they did away with the third forward folding beam on final product? Assuming that you put that in or even a simple bolted in piece like so many cats have then I wonder if that would give you the extra stiffening or support you might need. It's partly a Kurt Hughes design and I know he can figure out a way to make it work. If you can license the rights to use the patent then you are on your way. Option B would be to inspect and then buy and ship the Cat2Fold in a container and stretch the hulls there in NZ again with the blessing of Mr. Hughes. That way there are no patent issues. That boat has been for sale for years and I suspect you could get it for a dramatically reduced price. I have an idea for an accordian style folding salon that would be light and strong and in the end would look a bit like a Maine Cat. Just trying to help. Bob
    BTW In another life I lived in the Colorado Ski town of Breckenridge. We had a loft for rent and rented it to 2 college guys from Christchurch. By the end of the season we had 7 of them up there. Those guys were maniacs and it was one of the best times of my life.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  7. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    I just want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting you build any of these particular boats I mention - just that Malcolms site contains a number of permutations on the tube cat theme about that size which makes for easy visual comparison. A few more specs wouldn't go astray though.

    Both the toilet showers are walk throughs.

    Weights:

    Bladerunner 43' (standard)

    weight 1813 kg; disp 2560kg

    Targa 39' weight 2520 kg; disp 3640. Note this is an older design for DD ply as opposed to the Bladerunner which is cedar strip with foam and carbon ring frames.

    The Jayar has a disp of 4830 kg. I don't have an empty weight. The hulls are the same length and width as the Targa, a little deeper and more full in the ends. In the same materials I'd expect the Jayar sans pod to weigh a little more than the Targa, but not much more. Built of foam either could be lighter.
    A Jayar (or similar) built of foam should fit your weight requirements and the pod could probably be transported sitting on top.

    None of the above have been designed to be particularly easy to demount, but this is really just a matter of engineering something more appropriate. The aussies routinely trail and setup racing cats in the larger sizes so you might get some pointers from that direction.

    Also suggest you have a yarn to Mike Leneman of Multimarine about his 39' cat Minette, which he has dismantled and moved around to various cruising grounds. http://www.multimarine.com/Minette.htm

    A wider hull would obviously be better from an interior space perspective. Unfortunately it appears that you are stuck with the 1.2m foot hull width, if you want to trail them together, because two cat hulls counts as a divisible load.

    My reading of the trailer regs is that given the maximum allowable dimensions of your trailer you could carry a flared tri main hull of 3 metres or more beam, with the floats stowed underneath and be able to trail it without a permit. Might be a lot nicer to live on than a couple of 1.2 metre tubes.
     
  8. Skint For Life
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Skint For Life Junior Member

    Sand crab, Thanks for this :)

    The idea of stretching hulls sounds interesting. Although if I was buying a second hand boat I'd think twice about buying a chopped and stretched one, I think such a thing could seriously harm resale. Not to mention it sounds like it would be easy to stuff up/ hard to get it looking good. Yes I did notice that they did away with the third forward folding beam on final product. Re putting it back in or a solid member, yes certainly sounds like a possibility.

    Thanks for all your help bob, it's not going un-noticed. The cat2fold design looks interesting, but.....(I hope I don't offend anyone here) .... It seems to me that the design is possibly more complex than it needs to be? Weak than other designs that could be made with the same materials more effeciently? Takes up valuable living space where the beams fold into the hull sides?

    This idea of an accordian style folding salon sounds interesting :)

    Glad to hear you enjoyed your time with fellow Cantabrians :)

    James:
    Duly noted :)

    Thanks for that :) That was the solution I guessed at when allowing for a central walkway.

    Thanks for the weights, it's good to know that a boat that size would weigh in about where it needs to :D

    This is where the majority of my design ideas have been focused, on folding or demounting systems that are simple and strong. The plan is to bring the boat to trailer beam on the water, then winch it on the trailer, no need for a telescoping trailer that can handle the weights out wide of the boat. I realise I am no boat designer, The hull forms will for the most part be handled by a professional down the track, what I want to nail down for now is the viability/possibility of the project, and the easy/strong fold or demount system.

    I couldn't find anything on google relating to this. Thanks for the tip though, it may come in handy down the track :) I checked out the "Minette" It looks from the pictures on the website to not be easy to mount and demount, which is something I would like to achieve. The pictures look to me like each hull has it's own castor wheeled frame, not a single trailer that the boat dismounts from. He mentions assembling it on the beach, not trailer to water like I want.

    Stuck with 1.2 meter hulls? I get that I can't go wider than that but is it that much of a problem considering the max length of 12.5 meters? A rough length to beam ratio of 10-1 (about where I want for a cruising boat from what I've read.) Wouldn't going wider than that in a boat that length just make for slow hulls? I get that two cat hulls are a divisible load, not too pleased about it but hey.

    This bit really blew me away, so I did some more reading then called a few people at NZTA. Yes it seems if a load is just oversize by a bit then it may not need a permit or pilot vehicle $$$ The lady I talked to said that I was best to read the requirements of a CAT1 overdimension load, so I did.

    http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/factsheets/53/category.html
    http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/factsheets/53/cat1-cat2-operating-requirements.html

    My reading of the above links makes me think that the sensible size to make any overdimension width is just less than 3.1 meters, after that point more requirements and cost are involved.

    So lets say a tri with a width of 3.1 meters, sounds doable. If the beams of the tri are the widest point like in a farrier design, would this not be considered a devisable load, so the beams and amas would need to be removed? Making the whole situation kind of pointless? Also once going bigger the target weight of 3500KG for trailer and load seems to be less achieveable.

    I checked out the KSS and Cylinder moulding boat building techniques today, very interesting stuff. I like the single keel chine on the CM hull shown here: http://www.multihulldesigns.com/pdf/cm/30.gif It seems to me that it would be better than a fully rounded bilge as when beaching you are not beaching on a wide bottom section, the chine could be taped along the length of it to give more abrasion resistance.

    I'm still chipping away on my foldable/demountable cat designs and I'm quite happy with my progress. You pointing out that the cabin soles can be much lower has really thrown a spanner in the works of my designs as I had started out with folding designs with a pod, then removed it once I thought there was not enough height, now I'm designing with a pod again! But it's all good stuff I'm learning and getting this feedback has been great for me to progress with my sketches. So thanks again guys for the input :D:D:D
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2011
  9. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Corley epoxy coated

    farriers F39 trimaran has some really good ideas implemented for a maxi trailerable boat it's too wide to trailer without demounting but if you wanted to pull the boat out and live on it while it was on a hardstand it would be a good option. I also think the realities of trailering a 40' boat wont be much fun but good luck with that, after seeing the serious vehicles that are enlisted to trailer 30' trimarans good luck sticking to your weight budget the sheer amount of skin on the boat and the large of gear you need to cruise bluewater is going to make it all very difficult.
     
  10. Sand crab
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    Sand crab Junior Member

    Tris

    1. If considering tris then check out the Contour 50. http://multihullcompany.com/Trimaran_for_Sale/Contour_C50/Cruz_del_Sur
    You can download the pics seperately. They show the dismountable hulls known as amas tucked in under the main hull on the trailer. Downside is this boat has to be assembled when trucked and that takes a day or two and would include crane time. The crossmembers are called akas. Obviously too big for you but shows how it's done.
    2. For cruising cats 10 to 1 is considered a slimmer hull than standard. Most are around 8.5 to 1. They are fat cats.
    3. Here in the states our standard diesel pickups can haul over 20,000 lbs with little or no extra permits or regulations. Can't you do it this way in NZ? That way you could increase your weight a bit if you have to?
    4. Heres an idea. Connect the cathulls with 3 aluminum tubes bolted to the top of each hull. Many homebuilts use this method. Make it so you can loosen these slightly in the hull connection assembly so the tubes will slide in the connection while you winch the 2 hulls together. Perhaps a highly modified brace band like the ones used in chain link fencing would work. http://www.hooverfence.com/catalog/cpage2.htm When the hulls are touching the crossmember tubes are now sticking out past the hulls. Simply slide these tubes out and replace with shorter ones one at a time and retighten the bands. This has no complicated folding system and is simple, easy, lighter and you are ready for trucking. Some technical issues but any system would have that. Go with twin masts to keep the weight off the crossbeams. They'll be shorter for trucking anyway.
    5. Regarding folding systems your biggest problem is patent infringement. You would have to invent your own folding system that is totally unique. Sliding, telescoping, cranking open, folding up, down or sideways have all been done and I guarantee that you will be sued if your design remotely resembles one of these. Perhaps you should just buy a folding tri? Proven system and no issues.
    Good Luck BOB
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2011
  11. rattus
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    rattus SeƱor Member

    Bob and Skint, I wouldn't worry too much about patent infringement.

    First, many of the patents have expired long ago, including the famous Farrier parallelogram folding beam.

    Second, constructing any folding mechanism for one's personal use is allowed without risk.

    Third, many patents are indefensible under the "obviousness" test, which states that no patent may be issued that "a person having ordinary skill in the art to which said subject matter pertains" may find obvious; i.e. a boat designer wouldn't be able to easily conceive by his own efforts. Ian Farrier's patent was (patently) non-obvious; any sliding-beam scheme is obvious. Many patents issued in the US won't stand scrutiny on that point.

    Note: I am not a patent attorney, I only play one on TV. ;-)

    On L/B ratio; the beam to which we refer is *waterline* beam, so a 12.5m cat with a 1.25m beam would probably have a much higher L/B than 10:1, unless the hull sides were vertical slabs from sheer to waterline - highly unlikely unless Phil Bolger (R.I.P. - a brilliant guy) were involved in the design.

    Mike
     
  12. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    >>Stuck with 1.2 meter hulls? I get that I can't go wider than that but is it that much of a problem considering the max length of 12.5 meters? A rough length to beam ratio of 10-1 (about where I want for a cruising boat from what I've read.) Wouldn't going wider than that in a boat that length just make for slow hulls? I get that two cat hulls are a divisible load, not too pleased about it but hey.

    Going out to 5 or 6 feet in hull width greatly increases living space inside a cat hull. It can be achieved by angling the topsides out or with a hull flare or step to avoid an overly wide waterline. If you look at the Te henga on (again :D) malcolms site as an example the hulls are (approx as scaled off A4 pics) 1.6 metres wide across the gunwale, 1.2 across the WL and have a WL length to beam ratio of 9.4:1, which is pretty good for an out and out cruising design. By comparison the waterline L/B ratio of the aforementioned designs is; Jayar 13:1, Targa 13.2:1, Bladerunner 17:1.

    This has implications for overall displacement and load carrying capacity especially if you are thinking of ocean cruising. Payload of the Bladerunner is only 747 kg, Targa 1120kg. I don't have a payload figure for the Jayar as I don't know the mt weight but IF you could build one at around the same or a little more weight than the Targa (which seems reasonable) you could be looking at a payload of around 2000kg.



    >>So lets say a tri with a width of 3.1 meters, sounds doable. If the beams of the tri are the widest point like in a farrier design, would this not be considered a devisable load, so the beams and amas would need to be removed? Making the whole situation kind of pointless? Also once going bigger the target weight of 3500KG for trailer and load seems to be less achieveable.

    Thats an interesting point - I am not sure to what extent 'divisible' is taken literally by the NZTA. The F36 and 39 demount for trailing. You might be able to get a permit to road haul a fully assembled, folded 39 (the 36 does not fold), but at 4.8 metres wide it would be an expensive exercise.

    With demountability in mind, I was thinking more of something like this Hughes 38 (maybe with a wider centre hull) with alloy tube beams.
    http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/d38tri.html
    which has a main hull approx 2.5 metres beam and what appears a quite liveable interior. it would fit the light trailer with the beams and floats stacked on top. But of course it is all somewhat dependant on how many people you are wanting to house. If you had a couple of kids I could see some real advantages in having the separate hulls of a cat ;). I see Kurt shows a version with telescoping beams that has a measurement of around 3.8m pulled in which appears just over the limit for the Cat one load regs. he also offers demountable versions of a couple other tri's around this LOA.

    I guess whether incorporating folding into the design is worth it comes down to how often you envisage pulling the boat out of the water. It will cost in weight and money. If you want to haul regularly, demounting will soon become a pain. But if its only every year or two it might not be so bad. All the easily trailerable options like the F32 are a bit smaller.
     
  13. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    In NZ once you're over 4500 kg (9920 lbs) a heavy vehicle (Class 2 or higher depending on weight/vehicle type) drivers license is needed. Also heavy vehicles have more stringent certification.
     
  14. Skint For Life
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Skint For Life Junior Member

    Hi All,

    I have been giving this some more thought, I'll post up some pics soon of the kind of design that I am thinking of, but I'll give a quick description now.

    41 foot catamaran, hulls max trailer width when side by side, Beams slip through the tops of the hulls and are replaced by small beams for trailering, the designs I have drawn for the slip/demount beam setups are very similar to existing ones I have seen. That part about "obviousness" is good :)

    The boat would be a bi-plane rig preferably with unstayed short masts to keep the COE and COG down, also unstayed for the simplicity of not having to connect and tighten the stays. Also as the beams slip through collars on the hulls they need to not have any attachments on them, just plain tube aluminium is what I am thinking. I would like the rigs to be simple and able to be quickly reefed, I really like the setup on the small cruising cat "miss cindy"

    Max accommodation in the hulls obviously, possibly some hard deck between the hulls, but mainly tramps. I am a little concerned about the mast steps going right to the keel, as this will affect interior room and getting past it may be an issue. Lee way prevention is yet to be sorted, it's all just a rough concept for now. I would prefer rounded or mostly rounded bilges with leeway prevention not taking away valuable interior space.

    For a hull length 12.5 meters and a hull beam of 1.2 meters the hull may be too narrow for a good load carrying capacity (discussed in previous posts). Not enough flare in the hull sides? As going wider is not really an option, I would like to ask the question, what if the hulls were taller? As in the original post? What effects would there be if the boat was made to ride deeper in the water? With relatively straight hull sides? Some of the racing cats I have seen have very little flare to the hull sides, but the hulls look to be a little taller to add the extra bouyancy lost by the lack of flare.

    The boat would have standing room for the head/shower and galley. With at least a double berth per hull. A rudder and outboard per hull to keep things simple. As the overall concept is relatively simple I would hope the cost and build time would be lower than a complex folding design.

    I noticed this cat on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUzwH54pnzg it looks to have a similar slip/demount tube design to the ones I have drawn.

    I hope to update with some sketches soon :D
     

  15. Alex.A
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    Alex.A Senior Member

    What about something like K-designs pelican? Except that the pod and hulls wouldn't be joined.... turn the pod thru 90deg to trailer on top of the hulls and should still come in under ht restrictions? Only limit is 3.1m to the pod width but could still be full cat beam?
     

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